Sadler 290

[Seven Spades]

I stand corrected, using Google it appears they were for sale at one point by The Shipyard at Littlehampton. Where they are now I have no idea. I am surprised that someone has not picked them up. The Mystery 35 is still being made after the original makers stopped and I would have thought that someone would have jumped at the 290 moulds given its unique market place an popularity.

 

[Georgio]

I would have thought that someone would have jumped at the 290 moulds given its unique market place an popularity.

Agreed, hopfully when we come out the other side of this economic snafu they will go back into production.

 

[Tranona]

I stand corrected, using Google it appears they were for sale at one point by The Shipyard at Littlehampton. Where they are now I have no idea. I am surprised that someone has not picked them up. The Mystery 35 is still being made after the original makers stopped and I would have thought that someone would have jumped at the 290 moulds given its unique market place an popularity.

Not strictly correct. The old Hillyard company agreed to complete some of the part finished boats, but the yard (and the boats) burnt to the ground in suspicious circumstances. The Shipyard occupies the same site. Lauren Marine also completed a couple of the boats.

The Mystery is still offered by Cornish Crabbers, who were the previous builders when Hunters were also part of the group. The new Crabber company also kept the Mystery. There was one on display at Southampton.

Doubt the Sadler will be revived. Much as people like them, that is very different from being prepared to pay over £100k for one - which is what it would cost to give even a chance of a builder making a profit.

 

[snooks]

The big problem is that "small" (yes 29ft is small for production boat building) boats don't make the profit the big boats do.

They take the same amount of people to build for the same amount of hours, as something 10 foot bigger, the increase of engine size costs more but most of the installation costs are the same. The extra material costs are around the same because for the bigger boats you have a greater turnover and can buy in bulk.

This is why for a lot of the big yards the smaller boats are very simply fitted out (HR 31 the exception, but look at the price), if they build one at all.

Not only that, but for the price of a new 32 footer you could get a secondhand 40 footer, and if you want a 30 foot boat you can get one for well under half the price of a new boat the same size.

I'm not saying they won't sell, but just having a 29 footer won't make you a lot of money unless you have bigger boats in the range to subsidise it.

 

[Habebty]

The big problem is that "small" (yes 29ft is small for production boat building) boats don't make the profit the big boats do.

They take the same amount of people to build for the same amount of hours, as something 10 foot bigger, the increase of engine size costs more but most of the installation costs are the same. The extra material costs are around the same because for the bigger boats you have a greater turnover and can buy in bulk.

This is why for a lot of the big yards the smaller boats are very simply fitted out (HR 31 the exception, but look at the price), if they build one at all.

Not only that, but for the price of a new 32 footer you could get a secondhand 40 footer, and if you want a 30 foot boat you can get one for well under half the price of a new boat the same size.



I'm not saying they won't sell, but just having a 29 footer won't make you a lot of money unless you have bigger boats in the range to subsidise it.

Very True, but there is no other new or secondhand 29/30 footers out there to compare really in performance and stability. The RM is a good performance boat I hear, and secondhand I would rate the Hunter Horizon 30 as perhaps similar which funnily enough was what I was looking for before I saw the Sadler.

 

[Georgio]

The big problem is that "small" (yes 29ft is small for production boat building) boats don't make the profit the big boats do.

They take the same amount of people to build for the same amount of hours, as something 10 foot bigger, the increase of engine size costs more but most of the installation costs are the same. The extra material costs are around the same because for the bigger boats you have a greater turnover and can buy in bulk.

This is why for a lot of the big yards the smaller boats are very simply fitted out (HR 31 the exception, but look at the price), if they build one at all.

Not only that, but for the price of a new 32 footer you could get a secondhand 40 footer, and if you want a 30 foot boat you can get one for well under half the price of a new boat the same size.

I'm not saying they won't sell, but just having a 29 footer won't make you a lot of money unless you have bigger boats in the range to subsidise it.

Snooks, I suspect you are correct on much of what you have posted around the economics of "smaller" boat building, however I maintain there is a market for this boat. There are people around who despite being able to buy larger do not wish to and the 290 package (good performance, bilge keel, easily manageable and comfortable for 2 for extended periods afloat) is attractive. Perhaps the 290 will have a 100K (or more) price but people will pay this sort of figure, it may not sell in the 100's but there is an opportunity here.

 

[Seven Spades]

Snooks, I suspect you are correct on much of what you have posted around the economics of "smaller" boat building, however I maintain there is a market for this boat. There are people around who despite being able to buy larger do not wish to and the 290 package (good performance, bilge keel, easily manageable and comfortable for 2 for extended periods afloat) is attractive. Perhaps the 290 will have a 100K (or more) price but people will pay this sort of figure, it may not sell in the 100's but there is an opportunity here.

I think you are correct, a good example is the cost of a new Contessa 32 (Over £100K). They build new ones occasionally but not much of a market. I would have thought the 290 would have had more appeal because, there are few second hand versions available and it is a modern boat with more comforts that a C32 and particularly for the East cost the choices are limited for new bilge keelers.

 

[Tranona]

Well, there was not last time around. Despite its popularity and a much more "competitive" price, they still failed to attract enough customers to stay in business. I know their failure was not just because of lack of orders, but more to do with keeping the price too low to attract any orders at all and finding they could not live with cost increases to meet the orders.

 

[The Third Man]

Rampart Yachts Directors

The directors of Rampart Yachts (being the company that initially produced the 290) tend to get a bad Press which is largely unfair. As far as these directors are concerned it is true to say that they were largely done for by the extortionate increase in the cost of lead which arose during the last year that they were produced. They had to absorb this increase due to every boat being sold on a fixed price contract. The contract meant that they could not pass on the increase in cost to the customer as a consequence some were sold at a loss. They were competing with boats being sold ready made where costs were obviously known and could be priced in accordingly.

It needs to be acknowledged that whilst in production the directors introduced numerous modifications to the boat, mainly minor ones but each brought a slight enhancement for the owners and never once was the cost passed on. More fool them one might say with hindsight but at least they were striving for the best boat they could offer.

According to the famous PBO reviews AVS is 140 degrees, by the way.

 

[snooks]

Perhaps the 290 will have a 100K (or more) price but people will pay this sort of figure, it may not sell in the 100's but there is an opportunity here.

Sadler 290 for £100k or Hanse 325 for £70k?

Or a Bavaria 32 with a base price of €53k, yes I know you'll have to spend a bit more to get it on the water, but you would still have a lot more change than if you bought one of the German boats

 

[The Third Man]

Yes but what Snooks and others miss is that some people, and my wife and I are two of them, do not actually want a boat bigger than 29 feet. OK the Hanse 325 is only about three feet more but for starters that would put us in a higher marina price category and cost us significantly more annually. But that's not really the point. The point is that we are happy handling 29 feet of boat. For two people at our ages an in our circumstances (children long since gone and grand children only onboard occasionaly) it is quite sufficient thank you. It is totally invalid to always think in terms how many feet can you get to the pound.
I'm not going to look back now but I think Habebty made the point that if you wanted a boat of this size with twin keels the Sadler 290 was pretty much unbeatable. And my wife and I would agree with him.

If anyone is interested in the boat's performance read the PBO review and research the Round Shetland and Britain and Ireland Race results.

 

[Habebty]

Yes but what Snooks and others miss is that some people, and my wife and I are two of them, do not actually want a boat bigger than 29 feet. OK the Hanse 325 is only about three feet more but for starters that would put us in a higher marina price category and cost us significantly more annually. But that's not really the point. The point is that we are happy handling 29 feet of boat. For two people at our ages an in our circumstances (children long since gone and grand children only onboard occasionaly) it is quite sufficient thank you. It is totally invalid to always think in terms how many feet can you get to the pound.
I'm not going to look back now but I think Habebty made the point that if you wanted a boat of this size with twin keels the Sadler 290 was pretty much unbeatable. And my wife and I would agree with him.

If anyone is interested in the boat's performance read the PBO review and research the Round Shetland and Britain and Ireland Race results.

Quite right, and also comparing a Hanse is not really comparing apples with apples.

I met the guy who did the RBI race and would agree with his assessment of the performance of the 290. I believe he was in the lead for 1 or two stages?

 

[Tranona]

Yes but what Snooks and others miss is that some people, and my wife and I are two of them, do not actually want a boat bigger than 29 feet. OK the Hanse 325 is only about three feet more but for starters that would put us in a higher marina price category and cost us significantly more annually. But that's not really the point. The point is that we are happy handling 29 feet of boat. For two people at our ages an in our circumstances (children long since gone and grand children only onboard occasionaly) it is quite sufficient thank you. It is totally invalid to always think in terms how many feet can you get to the pound.
I'm not going to look back now but I think Habebty made the point that if you wanted a boat of this size with twin keels the Sadler 290 was pretty much unbeatable. And my wife and I would agree with him.

If anyone is interested in the boat's performance read the PBO review and research the Round Shetland and Britain and Ireland Race results.

Don't think anybody is questioning the boat itself. There are obviously people like you and Haberty who might be prepared to pay the premium, there do not seem to be enough to make it a profitable activity for a builder.

 

[Georgio]

Sadler 290 for £100k or Hanse 325 for £70k?

Or a Bavaria 32 with a base price of €53k, yes I know you'll have to spend a bit more to get it on the water, but you would still have a lot more change than if you bought one of the German boats

Correct me if I am wrong Snooks but I don't think the Hanse or the Bav offer Bilge keels??

Also it's not just about the list price it's also about residual price after 3-5-10+ years...

 

[The Third Man]

Actually now that the Hanse 325 has got dragged into this discussion I would, as they say, "refer you to the answer I gave earlier".

There was a thread on the Southampton Boat Show recently to which I made a small contribution. My key point was that we left very happy as we went on a boat 3 feet larger than our Sadler 290 and soon decided that we preferred our 290 thank you. The other boat was the Hanse 325.

 

[Tranona]

Correct me if I am wrong Snooks but I don't think the Hanse or the Bav offer Bilge keels??

Also it's not just about the list price it's also about residual price after 3-5-10+ years...

Not sure bilge keels (or more properly twin keels) are a big selling point on new boats now. They were when many new boats were bought for use on drying moorings. When Legend started up in this country there big selling point was that they would offer bilge keels. I understand the majority of the boats they built were fin keeled.

Bilge keels have only made an impression in the UK, and then for only a very short period in the history of boating when they suited market conditions. In the major markets of the world they have no advantages and in those where draft is an issue, variable keels are usually the preferred alternative.

 

[Georgio]

Not sure bilge keels (or more properly twin keels) are a big selling point on new boats now. They were when many new boats were bought for use on drying moorings. When Legend started up in this country there big selling point was that they would offer bilge keels. I understand the majority of the boats they built were fin keeled.

Bilge keels have only made an impression in the UK, and then for only a very short period in the history of boating when they suited market conditions. In the major markets of the world they have no advantages and in those where draft is an issue, variable keels are usually the preferred alternative.

From my point of view (I have a deep fin) and don’t want to give up the performance of that but there are plenty of places I would like to go but can not (at least not without beaching legs), however it seems that the 290 and RM yachts seem to offer very good performance so the best of both worlds.

I did look at the Hunter Legends but they don’t really do it for me aesthetically and don’t sail as well (although build quality appeared good and lots of kit)

 

[The Third Man]

Don't think anybody is questioning the boat itself. There are obviously people like you and Haberty who might be prepared to pay the premium, there do not seem to be enough to make it a profitable activity for a builder.

Well I am not qualified to get too deeply into boat building costs and I am not sure where the £100,000 figure came from. The basic cost of ours including VAT was £76,000. However, based on my experience of the build process, I do think that the 290 could have been built by Ramparts more efficiently and there were areas that the directors could have looked at. What I will not accept is that either of the two Rampart directors were "disreputable" as Fast Jedi suggests and this is where I came into this discusssion. In fact I think it is rather a dangerous statement to make in a public forum.

 

[The Third Man]

Initially Rampart Yachts offered a fin keel version of the 290 but they did not receive a single request for one.

 

[Georgio]

Well I am not qualified to get too deeply into boat building costs and I am not sure where the £100,000 figure came from. The basic cost of ours including VAT was £76,000. However, based on my experience of the build process, I do think that the 290 could have been built by Ramparts more efficiently and there were areas that the directors could have looked at. What I will not accept is that either of the two Rampart directors were "disreputable" as Fast Jedi suggests and this is where I came into this discusssion. In fact I think it is rather a dangerous statement to make in a public forum.

100K was a "finger in the air price" for a low volume, uk built boat of that size. That number could be way out. Not sure when you bought but 76K inc VAT seems very good value.