Sad news from Turkey

[charles_reed]

Those of you who are members of the CA will, no doubt, have read the unfortunate experience of a Swiss citizen @ Giresun.
I suspect that the trends I noted in 2009 are gathering speed and those liveaboards in Turkey may wish to reconsider their position, and those intending to go there might change their minds.
What is happening in Turkey is likely to affect all of us.

Taking sides will be a most foolish action by any strangers, and the request contained in this thread is, IMHO, a regrettable lapse in commonsense.

 

[Carmel2]

Charles, or anyone else who is a CA Member,

Could you outline the problems they encountered? I realise that a straightforward copy and paste from the CA is a no no, But it would be helpful to others who are wavering as whether or not to go this summer.

 

[vyv_cox]

Charles, or anyone else who is a CA Member,

Could you outline the problems they encountered? I realise that a straightforward copy and paste from the CA is a no no, But it would be helpful to others who are wavering as whether or not to go this summer.

Nothing to do with the political situation. Sounded to me like a jobsworth harbourmaster demonstrating that he was all-powerful and throwing out a yacht from his harbour. Could conceivably have happened anywhere, although certainly unique in my experience.

 

[Carmel2]

Thanks Vyv.

 

[macd]

I suspect that the trends I noted in 2009 are gathering speed and those liveaboards in Turkey may wish to reconsider their position, and those intending to go there might change their minds.

Could you possibly give us a precis of those trends, Charles, or perhaps a link? Maybe along with your grounds for suspicion? The only thing that's gathering pace around here, and somewhat belatedly, is the heat.

 

[Squeaky]

Good afternoon:

I don't know why this particular political disturbance has created such a "kerfuffle (fuss; commotion) but I don't see anything that would suggest that any reasonable person should avoid visiting or coming to Turkey provided they do not become involved in the demonstrations or political rallies. As far as life on the street goes, life goes on as it does normally.

My watch word would be "mind your own business and don't become involved in any political discussions" especially if you don't know much about the political history of Turkey. We have enough of those sorts here already.

Reminds me of the old adage "an empty vessel makes the most noise".

Cheers

Squeaky

 

[Carmel2]

Squeaky,

You are on the ground and I am at the mercy of the the press, so to ask would seem prudent, do you not think?

 

[akyaka]

Squeaky

+1

Apart from animated conversations from our neighbours all of whom are adamant that Turkey will remain secular life as Squeaky says carries on as normal.

I am not aware that the army or even the jandarma have been involved in the demonstrations as was suggested by earlier posters.

 

[charles_reed]

Could you possibly give us a precis of those trends, Charles, or perhaps a link? Maybe along with your grounds for suspicion? The only thing that's gathering pace around here, and somewhat belatedly, is the heat.

The first was the requirement that you had to have an "official" agent for entry.
The second was the Blue Card in Muglia province, soon to be extended to the whole coastline.
The third is the political reaction to Erdoygan's heavy-handed administration.

There are a whole lot of big sticks with which the Turkish authorities can now beat us and it won't be long before we have more reports of behaviour like that in Giresun

 

[Squeaky]

The first was the requirement that you had to have an "official" agent for entry.
The second was the Blue Card in Muglia province, soon to be extended to the whole coastline.
The third is the political reaction to Erdoygan's heavy-handed administration.
There are a whole lot of big sticks with which the Turkish authorities can now beat us and it won't be long before we have more reports of behaviour like that in Giresun

Good morning Mr Reed:

I don't know what grounds you have for disliking Turkey however you should note that there are hundreds of foreign yachtsmen and women in Turkey who would not even have noticed the events taking place in Istanbul primarily because they are minding their own business and letting the Turkish population and government deal with it. if they have any interest in current affairs I am sure they are noting the events and filing them away in the back of their minds much as they do with world events which don't impact on their lives or those of their families.

If your decision not to come to Turkey is based solely on the reasons listed above I suspect you are and will be better off remaining where you are as I am sure you don't have to endure such minor annoyances wherever that is.

In so far as the "official agents" are concerned I suspect that the fault belongs with the person who designed the web site as he/she did not realize that by only permitting the entry of any series of numbers other than those of the Turkish ID card that he/she was effectively restricting the use of the site to Turkish citizens. Bureaucracy, being what it is, has not realized where the problem lies and has done nothing to resolve it although I was advised by the responsible department that action was being taken nothing has yet happened - the problem/lack of action was related to a dispute between departments on the use/distribution of the funds raised from the issuance of transit logs.

In so far as I know there is nothing which states anyone must use an official agent other than the fact that transit logs must be registered "on line" and the web site only allows the use of identification details similar to those on a Turkish ID card to be entered. I am sure the minister did not dictate this to be done but it was simply done by someone preparing/coding the site without realizing how severely he/she was restricting the use of the site.

Agents, who are Turkish citizens saw an opportunity to capture this procedure which greatly increases their earnings, are not about to do anything to resolve the problem as they have a monopoly and are going to take advantage of it while they can.

The "Blue Card" is a totally different matter and as I have commented on this forum previously I believe it resulted from a few "do-gooders" in the Fethiye area spotting what they thought was a good little "earner" and conning the local governor into signing the regulation which they put forward. I am sure that the governor patted himself on the back for having struck a blow in the war against pollution little realizing that he had been conned by people who thought they were on to a good thing and going to make lots of money. It has not turned out that way as the system is totally impracticable and most of those involved seem to have disappeared chasing other "get rich" schemes. The Blue Card is presently nothing more than another of life's niggling annoyances. Of course if one wants to make a big deal out of it this can be done however most have taken the minimum needed action such as having a pump out recorded on their card which satisfies the local harbormaster. This can be done by taking the card to the marina reception who will record a pump out of their bilge at no charge. Of course I realize that some marinas will see this as an "earner" and charge for the procedure but that has to do with the management of the marina, not the authorities.

In so far as "big sticks" go, every country in the world has many regulations that can be trotted out to beat citizens who get stroppy around the head and shoulders for even such minor offenses as leaving your garbage bin cover open beyond a few millimeters so I think the general rule is "mind your own business and don't annoy anyone in a uniform or in authority" and you will not encounter any more problems in Turkey than you will in other countries.

In the meantime summer seems to have arrived in full force and it is time to devote our efforts to dealing with the increased temperature.

Cheers and have a good life

Squeaky

 

[rivonia]

The first was the requirement that you had to have an "official" agent for entry.
The second was the Blue Card in Muglia province, soon to be extended to the whole coastline.
The third is the political reaction to Erdoygan's heavy-handed administration.

There are a whole lot of big sticks with which the Turkish authorities can now beat us and it won't be long before we have more reports of behaviour like that in Giresun

+1

Peter

 

[Borden]

We returned from a few weeks of cruising in Turkey (based in Didim) two weeks ago. The first we learned of the unrest was from the BBC news when we arrived back in the UK. Apparently it was all going on whilst we were enjoying ourselves, the cruising, the weather, the very friendly Turkish people, the excellent bus services to see a bit more of the country, the Roman sites, the food and generally chilling. We're going back in a few weeks for more of these brushes with danger- so relaxing!

 

[demonboy]

Where are the rules about what forumites can say here? Is there a YBW protocol of what we can and cannot post that I am unaware of? Many people who use this forum are not only 'guests' in foreign countries, but residents who pay their taxes, permit and marina fees, contribute to the local economy and may have lived in their host country for years. IMHO they have a right to have an opinion on the politics in their country of residence. Moreover other liveaboards may be interested in those opinions, whether they agree with them or not. Telling us what we can and cannot post? You're starting to sound like a member of the Turkish government.

 

[charles_reed]

Where are the rules about what forumites can say here? Is there a YBW protocol of what we can and cannot post that I am unaware of? Many people who use this forum are not only 'guests' in foreign countries, but residents who pay their taxes, permit and marina fees, contribute to the local economy and may have lived in their host country for years. IMHO they have a right to have an opinion on the politics in their country of residence. Moreover other liveaboards may be interested in those opinions, whether they agree with them or not. Telling us what we can and cannot post? You're starting to sound like a member of the Turkish government.

Opinions OK and welcome, but asking forumites to take action on behalf of a minority of the foreign countries' population?
Especially when it's based upon a very biassed one-sided view.
After all Erdogan's party had well over 50% of the popular vote at the last election - their closest rivals 13%.

 

[akyaka]

After all Erdogan's party had well over 50% of the popular vote at the last election - their closest rivals 13%

er no AKP, which is a coalition party, had just under 50% and the next largest 26%

As the AKP did not exist before the turn of this century you must wonder how many votes have been picked up on the coat tails of the economic success of the last decade, and whether it will erode as quickly on the inevitable downturn.Next years election will be particularly interesting as Erdoğan cannot continue in office as Prime Minister, although he is hoping to change the law to enable him not only to be president, a separate vote, but one with powers similar to the USA's.

 

[Squeaky]

er no AKP, which is a coalition party, had just under 50% and the next largest 26%.
As the AKP did not exist before the turn of this century you must wonder how many votes have been picked up on the coat tails of the economic success of the last decade, and whether it will erode as quickly on the inevitable downturn.Next years election will be particularly interesting as Erdoğan cannot continue in office as Prime Minister, although he is hoping to change the law to enable him not only to be president, a separate vote, but one with powers similar to the USA's.

Good evening:

Sorry to advise that although some of your comment is generally correct there are errors in that the AK Party and government is not a coalition - "Founded in 2001 by members of a number of existing parties, the party won a landslide victory in the 2002 election, winning over two-thirds of parliamentary seats" - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justice_and_Development_Party_(Turkey)

The AK Party has undertaken structural reforms, and during its rule Turkey has seen rapid growth and an end to its three decade long period of high inflation rates. Inflation had fallen to 8.8% by 2004.

Influential business publications such as The Economist consider the AK Party's government the most successful in Turkey in decades.[12] -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justice_and_Development_Party_(Turkey)#2002_general_elections

Reforms to economic policy making put in place after a financial crisis in 2001 have made the economy stronger. A recent research paper by Dani Rodrik of Harvard University showed that Turkey's productivity record improved markedly in the decade after 2000, with average growth rates of 3-3.5% in GDP per person, GDP per worker and industrial output per worker. Income per head (in current dollar prices) has tripled in less than a decade to around $10,000 and there is still plenty of scope for Turkey to converge on the higher living standards of the rich world. Its big domestic market will become bigger: its 75m population is young and is forecast by the United Nations to reach 92m by 2050 - http://www.economist.com/node/21552216

It must have really stuck in the craw of Danni Rodnick to publish that data considering that he is the son-in-law of one of the generals who received a long prison sentence in a recent trial for trying to overthrow the AKP government.

I think an analysis of the voters would find that most supporters of the AK Party come from the lower end of the socioeconomic scale, who have gained a lot during the time the AK Party has been in power, while those of the upper end and the military who oppose the AK Party have seen a gradual reduction in their privileges and power. I suspect that those in the upper levels are those who are most in a position to influence western media to portray the AK Party and anything it does negatively.

Incidentally most of the opposition party (CHP) supporters live in the western Aegean provinces which means that these are the locals that most yachtsmen/women will meet or encounter. When discussing the situation in Turkish it is important to determine which party the person supports as they are more rabid in their support than any football fan will ever be.

There has been a parliament committee working on a new constitution for months and there have been suggestions that the AK Party wants to change to a US system of government however that is not gaining much traction. Erdogan and many other AK Party deputies are not permitted to stand for re-election under the current party by-laws having completed three terms in office.

Cheers

Squeaky

P.S in addition to the improvement in the economy there has been a massive reduction in the number of extra-judicial killing by various groups including secret Jardarma units in the eastern provinces.

 

[charles_reed]

Good afternoon:

I don't know why this particular political disturbance has created such a "kerfuffle (fuss; commotion) but I don't see anything that would suggest that any reasonable person should avoid visiting or coming to Turkey provided they do not become involved in the demonstrations or political rallies. As far as life on the street goes, life goes on as it does normally.

My watch word would be "mind your own business and don't become involved in any political discussions" especially if you don't know much about the political history of Turkey. We have enough of those sorts here already.

Reminds me of the old adage "an empty vessel makes the most noise".

Cheers

Squeaky

thanks for putting it so succinctly.

 

[akyaka]

Sorry to advise that although some of your comment is generally correct there are errors in that the AK Party and government is not a coalition - "Founded in 2001 by members of a number of existing parties, the party won a landslide victory in the 2002 election, winning over two-thirds of parliamentary seats"

I was trying to keep it simplistic and coalition seemed the appropriate word and still does albeit an intended permanent one and my neighbours have used the word koalisyon when talking about the AKP.All that I read in the Turkish press suggests that Erdoğan is reluctant to give up his powers and still wants to be head of state in fact and not just reality as now.

Nitpicking like this makes us sound like a real couple of Turks having a natter on the porch of an evening; we'll be discussing the price of tomatoes in the market before you know it

 

[satsuma]

The akp as a party were largely founded by the remnants of a previously disbanded islamic party. When they came to power it was with less votes, but more seats, partly because of the 10% threshold policy on proportional representation in Turkey, and partly because they consolidated the religious vote.

Despite a good deal of scepticism from the secularists this "moderate" religious party did well, they followed the financial plan laid out before them by the outgoing government, improved the national health service (at the same time as the prime ministers wife became a board member of a large chain of private hospitals) and spent money throughout the country on improving the transport infrastructure, developing the customs and border agency and improving water supplies etc to name but a few (with the money given by the european union 75% eu/25% Turkey), taking direct credit for all these improvements along the way! All well and good, typical politics really!

With each of the last two general elections this party has increased its vote, but decreased its holding of seats! It seems this is the result of improving the vote count in the areas that they are already strong, but losing marginals with petulant displays of anger, like reducing the funding to Antalya, when the akp were voted out of control there! It is not quite that simple, but a reasonable summary.

Most recently despite a quoted policy of "no problems with our neighbours" the pm and foreign minister have managed to now have no neighbours with which we do not have problems with, indeed most of our borders are on high alert! and lately the "good intentions" of joining europe have taken a back seat (or even dumped out of the back window) on the basis that no one is allowed to criticise the pm or his policies, and he now does not recognise the validity or authority of the european parliament.

Having consolidated power within Turkey, and delivering revenge and retribution on a secular state by arresting senior armed forces personnel, editors and journalists alike that publish dissent, he then brought the judiciary under his direct control. All good so far, and the country advances towards europe with some much needed and positive changes (and the funding of course).

However leading up to these recent protests, he seemed to show his hand and religious fervor by announcing a ban on the sale and consumption of alcohol within 100m of a school or a mosque! and further compounding his own, now obvious dislike of anything not islamic by declaring that anyone who drinks is an alcoholic (unless they voted akp), inferring that Ataturk and his prime minister at the time were both drunkards, and adding to the law that patrons at restaurants should not be visible by the general public if they are drinking alcohol.

Indeed as squeaky says, empty vessels do make the most noise, and erdogan is the loudest of all, most lately with his ranting and ravings that these demonstrators were just a few looters, followed by foreign agents plotting to overthrow the country, followed by a conspiracy of bankers intent on destabilising the country, while they profit on the markets (quite possibly the jews, or assad were also to blame for all of it too).

He is quoted in the past as saying that "democracy is a train that you ride, until you reach your own destination" Perhaps the great dictator is ready to get off??

None of which, should cause concern or worry to visiting yachtsmen however, but depending on where your port of call is, you should be aware of the issues, and with ramadan approaching caution is advised with regard to drinking, eating or smoking during daylight hours, last year a girl was punched in the face on a bus . . . . for wearing shorts in the lead up to ramadan!.

In any democracy people have the right to their opinions and views, and even if I disagree with others I would still defend their right to voice it! This prime minister seems less disposed of that opinion it seems!

 

[capnsensible]

I get to visit lots of countries by small vessel. The background information to be gained from forums like this is invaluable.

Its not all about pilotage! The situation ashore, for me, is very important.

Thanks to all who are discussing this in an open and relevant forum!

CS