Sad news from Turkey

[charles_reed]

The akp as a party were largely founded by the remnants of a previously disbanded islamic party. When they came to power it was with less votes, but more seats, partly because of the 10% threshold policy on proportional representation in Turkey, and partly because they consolidated the religious vote.

Despite a good deal of scepticism from the secularists this "moderate" religious party did well, they followed the financial plan laid out before them by the outgoing government, improved the national health service (at the same time as the prime ministers wife became a board member of a large chain of private hospitals) and spent money throughout the country on improving the transport infrastructure, developing the customs and border agency and improving water supplies etc to name but a few (with the money given by the european union 75% eu/25% Turkey), taking direct credit for all these improvements along the way! All well and good, typical politics really!

With each of the last two general elections this party has increased its vote, but decreased its holding of seats! It seems this is the result of improving the vote count in the areas that they are already strong, but losing marginals with petulant displays of anger, like reducing the funding to Antalya, when the akp were voted out of control there! It is not quite that simple, but a reasonable summary.

Most recently despite a quoted policy of "no problems with our neighbours" the pm and foreign minister have managed to now have no neighbours with which we do not have problems with, indeed most of our borders are on high alert! and lately the "good intentions" of joining europe have taken a back seat (or even dumped out of the back window) on the basis that no one is allowed to criticise the pm or his policies, and he now does not recognise the validity or authority of the european parliament.

Having consolidated power within Turkey, and delivering revenge and retribution on a secular state by arresting senior armed forces personnel, editors and journalists alike that publish dissent, he then brought the judiciary under his direct control. All good so far, and the country advances towards europe with some much needed and positive changes (and the funding of course).

However leading up to these recent protests, he seemed to show his hand and religious fervor by announcing a ban on the sale and consumption of alcohol within 100m of a school or a mosque! and further compounding his own, now obvious dislike of anything not islamic by declaring that anyone who drinks is an alcoholic (unless they voted akp), inferring that Ataturk and his prime minister at the time were both drunkards, and adding to the law that patrons at restaurants should not be visible by the general public if they are drinking alcohol.

Indeed as squeaky says, empty vessels do make the most noise, and erdogan is the loudest of all, most lately with his ranting and ravings that these demonstrators were just a few looters, followed by foreign agents plotting to overthrow the country, followed by a conspiracy of bankers intent on destabilising the country, while they profit on the markets (quite possibly the jews, or assad were also to blame for all of it too).

He is quoted in the past as saying that "democracy is a train that you ride, until you reach your own destination" Perhaps the great dictator is ready to get off??

None of which, should cause concern or worry to visiting yachtsmen however, but depending on where your port of call is, you should be aware of the issues, and with ramadan approaching caution is advised with regard to drinking, eating or smoking during daylight hours, last year a girl was punched in the face on a bus . . . . for wearing shorts in the lead up to ramadan!.

In any democracy people have the right to their opinions and views, and even if I disagree with others I would still defend their right to voice it! This prime minister seems less disposed of that opinion it seems!

I see a country with two distinctly divergent streams of opinion, which has yet to work its way to a concensus. Having been brought up in a Moslem country, I also know with what suspicion Western influences are regarded (especially by Sunni, Wahabist or not).
Perhaps Turks prefer "strong" leaders. Ataturk, after all, was utterly ruthless in dragging the Ottoman state into the 20th century - look at what he did to Enver Pasha, an erstwhile political ally.
The Army, left by Ataturk, as the custodian of the State, has been broken from its "guiding role" - in any case that old constitution would have barred entry to the EC.
Turkey is definitely muscling its way into becoming the regional power and, I would opine, Erdogan sees himself as a 2nd Ataturk, guiding Turkey into its rightful role.
This means a head-to-head with Shia Iran.
The country's economic performance, during his tenure of office, has definitely influenced voters perception of him. It is difficult to ascertain how practical an Islamist he is, but his wife wears the hijab in public, his opinions about alcohol are well-known. That same economic performance has converted Turkey from a low-cost base to one which is probably the most expensive in the E Mediterranean.

On balance, if I were already in Turkey, I'd probably stay. but looking at the developing situation, I'd not put my head into that lion's mouth. And if I were there I'd have my route out carefully planned.

 

[1bobt]

I spent 2004 there when the Greek games were on and loved it there and the people ....
Would I now go back from the balanced opinion on here A resounding No

 

[satsuma]

I see a country with two distinctly divergent streams of opinion, which has yet to work its way to a concensus. Having been brought up in a Moslem country, I also know with what suspicion Western influences are regarded (especially by Sunni, Wahabist or not).
Perhaps Turks prefer "strong" leaders. Ataturk, after all, was utterly ruthless in dragging the Ottoman state into the 20th century - look at what he did to Enver Pasha, an erstwhile political ally.
The Army, left by Ataturk, as the custodian of the State, has been broken from its "guiding role" - in any case that old constitution would have barred entry to the EC.
Turkey is definitely muscling its way into becoming the regional power and, I would opine, Erdogan sees himself as a 2nd Ataturk, guiding Turkey into its rightful role.
This means a head-to-head with Shia Iran.
The country's economic performance, during his tenure of office, has definitely influenced voters perception of him. It is difficult to ascertain how practical an Islamist he is, but his wife wears the hijab in public, his opinions about alcohol are well-known. That same economic performance has converted Turkey from a low-cost base to one which is probably the most expensive in the E Mediterranean.

On balance, if I were already in Turkey, I'd probably stay. but looking at the developing situation, I'd not put my head into that lion's mouth. And if I were there I'd have my route out carefully planned.

If anything, I believe Turkey has always been tolerant and welcoming on the whole, (perhaps with the exception of a few rural areas!) but it seems the prime minister is determined to remove all tolerance, for anything other than sunni muslim, by effectively polarising society with his drive to push religion into main stream life.

In all honesty I blame the successors to Ataturk, his vision to educate the nation, to value future generations, teachers, medicine and science was never implemented after his death. The old guard (generals and politicians alike) closed ranks, retained the status quo and were "over protective" about all matters "religious" creeping into public life.

erdogan in many ways was a refreshing change to a country that had stagnated, with overbearing military influence and corruption through to the core in local, regional and national government! He was a reformer, and talked about giving people freedoms and democracy. Tragically to many (and possibly the country too) he appears to have become, what he sought to remove! Displaying nothing short of dictatorial and tyrannical response against largely peaceful demonstrations against his own administration!

I suspect, with him previously being a recipient of the Gaddafi International Prize for Human Rights for his “distinguished service to humanity,” (which he said at the time, will further encourage him to fight for human rights), his previous close relationships to Mubarak, Assad and now with Hamas, may lead to the conclusion that he was not the freedom loving individual he once led people to believe! The rise of "piety" (tragically not the love of pies!) seems intended as a peer pressure approach to the introduction of greater religious observance throughout the nation!

The country in general requires full time education up until at least 16 years old. The majority of public schooling though is 5, half days a week (not full days) and the government recently amended laws to allow children as young as 12 to be home schooled (I'm guessing girls??), taught at trade schools for the likes of sewing, or now "elect" to go to religious schools! (I have never heard of a child of 12 choosing to go to a religious anything!).

The recent demonstrations, compounded by the police response, and the prime ministers outward and very vocal response to europe has highlighted the fragility in the Turkish economy. I am certain because of this, that any tourist pounds, euros or dollars will in any event be most welcome, on the Aegean coast, or even down the Mediterranean at Marmaris, Fethiye or Finike. Being generally remote and off the beaten track, these are not areas to be concerned in!

 

[Dig]

Last year a friend of ours came out from UK for a week and had some unpleasant experience with the police ,the last time he came on holiday was 5 years ago and had a great time,the police gave his such a hard time he will never come to Turkey again,His crime you may ask is just the fact he was Gay and was pick on,so things are changing in Turkey,i just looked up the last 4 years on the persecution of gays,its shocking how many have been killed and other stuff listed below.It makes you wonder what is going on here i always thought Turkey was sticking to EU rules on human rights.


Turkey's Culture Ministry restricts the viewing of the Oscar-winning gay romance 'Brokeback Mountain', saying the movie violated public morals
Broadcasting watchdog blocks reality television show in which men would compete to look and act like women, due to "intense public reaction against the proposed program"
Eleven gays are killed within the first half of 2009
Turkey suspends a gay referee after he 'outs' himself on television. Friends break off contact with him, and another referee says "It's entirely possible that he'd give more free kicks to a good-looking player"
Father shoots and kills his homosexual son after after he tells him about his relationship with a man from Germany
Gay and lesbian internet forums are shut down by censorship
Discrimination at the workplace and in the courts for the LGBT community in Turkey
Total of 45 gay and transgendered people have been killed in three years of "hate murders". Five people killed in February 2010 alone
Turkey punished by the European Court of Human Rights for banning a book about a pop star that discussed his sexual orientation
Government targets multiple Turkish LGBT organisations. Another gay group which had been harassed and condemned as "immoral" by the local government is ordered to close
The words "gay" and "anal" among the words banned from the internet by government, cited as "indecent" or "provocative". Over 120,000 websites containing these words will be ordered to close
16 people murdered in 2010. 89 percent of transgender women experience physical violence during police detention. Turkish MP: “I believe homosexuality is a biological disorder, an illness and should be treated”
“I cleansed my honor”, Muslim murders brother, shot in the head for being a transsexual
"The face must be visible, and the photos must show you as the passive partner," gays face humiliating ordeal to prove their homosexuality and to obtain pink certificate that says they have a "psychosexual disorder"
Mayor of Turkish capital Ankara on live TV, "We can't approve and live together with the gay culture in Europe. Our morals are different. Inshallah (hopefully) there won't be any gays in our Turkey and there shouldn't be"
Prime minister attacks Dutch lesbians for adopting Turkish Muslim boy, instructs his government to take the case to the ECHR. Lesbians go into hiding after being stalked by Turkish TV crew

 

[MASH]

It makes you wonder what is going on here i always thought Turkey was sticking to EU rules on human rights.

I makes me wonder what is going on here if anyone is as naiive and deluded as to think that. Do you not pay any attention to news, media, or humanitarian reports on Turkey's dreadful record on Human Rights? Journalists in prison for instance?

As for the rest of your post it is perhaps necessary for you to take a reality pill and wake up to the fact that large parts of the world do have different levels of sexual morality to the European version, just as many Europeans have a different level of sexual morality to the popular "anything goes" view. Turkey takes a stiffer view. Surely that is up to them? In some countries it is acceptable to marry at 13 - in UK people will choke themselves into apoplexy at the thought of "pedophiles" doing this and want to rip the foul monsters to pieces - literally. The others thought they were just married...
Let's have a care before we try to impose some of our more radical and controversial "rights" onto peoples who believe morality lies elsewhere.

 

[Sandyman]

Let's have a care before we try to impose some of our more radical and controversial "rights" onto peoples who believe morality lies elsewhere.

You mean the morality of some warped crazy stupid religious nutters who are imposing their beliefs on others ?

 

[MASH]

You mean the morality of some warped crazy stupid religious nutters who are imposing their beliefs on others ?

Which warped crazy stupid religious nutters are you referring to Sandyman, us imposing our decadent Western views on the Turks or Erdogan imposing a few mild (well, so far mild) islamic restrictions on the nation of which he is the democratically elected political head?

I don't much like either, but I think I know which is the more acceptable of the two at present.

 

[charles_reed]

Which warped crazy stupid religious nutters are you referring to Sandyman, us imposing our decadent Western views on the Turks or Erdogan imposing a few mild (well, so far mild) islamic restrictions on the nation of which he is the democratically elected political head?

I don't much like either, but I think I know which is the more acceptable of the two at present.

Well said, Mash, nutters, all crazed, but frequently not religious always try and force their views on others - many in the UK probably think we've gone too far. Personally, each to their tastes - as long I'm not forced to join in.

 

[akyaka]

Which warped crazy stupid religious nutters are you referring to Sandyman, us imposing our decadent Western views on the Turks or Erdogan imposing a few mild (well, so far mild) islamic restrictions on the nation of which he is the democratically elected political head?

I don't much like either, but I think I know which is the more acceptable of the two at present.

+1

 

[nortada]

Which warped crazy stupid religious nutters are you referring to Sandyman, us imposing our decadent Western views on the Turks or Erdogan imposing a few mild (well, so far mild) islamic restrictions on the nation of which he is the democratically elected political head?

I don't much like either, but I think I know which is the more acceptable of the two at present.

+1