RYA yachtmaster logbook entries

[ytd]

I learned to sail in the 70's before yachting qualifications existed although I did do a theory course at the local college but you didn't get a qualification unless you went on to work in the industry. So the only bit of paper I have is a Queensland powerboat licence and this won't even get you an ICC since Queensland is a state not a country.

Now I find people want a piece of paper before a charter or crew offer. So I though I would do the yachtmaster course and exam. The sailing school tells me I'll need a logbook showing 2500 miles of passages over 60 miles, etc. Not a problem I though, I'll just give them the ships log. Going back 4 or 5 years should cover it.

But then 2 problems emerged. It's a share boat so I wasn't there for some of the passages in the log, and I often use a shorthand code to record details like weather forecasts, crew, radio skeds, etc. Plus the logbook is a bit tatty with pages of race tactical plans not related to a particular passage, coffee and claret stains, pens running out, gratuitous comments about sub standard spinnaker handling, competitor's boats, people not filling up the fuel, etc.

Can I transcribe sufficient passages into a new RYA/YA format logbook and submit this. The person at the school was unsure.

And what sort of log entries are usual. Again, the person at the school suggested hourly position, sea and wind state and course but I usually only record something in the log when there's a change. A change of course, sails, wind, will warrant an entry but if nothing changes for 6 hours then there's no entry. Also I don't usually record who is on watch or who did what during a sail change.

Finally, I notice there is a column for the signature of the instructor/training officer/skipper. Since I was the skipper for these passages can I sign my own entries?

 

[DJE]

I just got out the old boat logs and transcribed them into a spreadsheet. I listed all the significant passages and summarised the rest of each season's mileage. Printed it out and handed it to the examiner at the start of the YM exam. It doesn't have to be in an RYA logbook (well it didn't have to be in 2007). The examiner reckoned that he would know within 30 minutes if anybody had falsified their mileage record.

 

[Deleted member 36384]

The latest version of the Log Book is G15/04. I have the G15/03 version. In the version I have (and certainly the earlier log books as well) there is a section for summarising experience prior to keeping a log. This is what you should complete.

Are you not mixing things up though? The RYA Log Book for the training scheme does not have space for hourly readings. It is only a record of your voyage, one line per voyage, recording miles, days, night hours, dates and general voyage information. Its not in a day log format.

You can transcribe past voyages into the appropriate section and use that if you wish. You can sign off your own logged passages where you are the skipper.

The syllabus sections that require signing off can only be done by an Instructor when working for an RYA Recognised sailing school when assessing you for that element of the syllabus. An RYA Instructor, who is freelance, but not working for a school, can not sign the syllabus elements off independently.

Finally, there is actually no requirement to maintain the RYA log book for evidence anyway, so the spreadsheet logbook mentioned by DJE is just as valid. Note that for the Yachtmaster Certificates of Competency you need to identify the 5 qualifying passages, two of which you must have been skipper. So at least high light these as its a mandatory requirement. The attendance courses: Day Skipper and Yachtmaster Coastal, don't require qualifying passages.

Its all explained here: http://www.rya.org.uk/Pages/Home.aspx

 

[dt4134]

An RYA log book just has a row per trip with the basic details, miles (tidal or not), days, night hours. You should also have a separate list of trips over 60M.

You don't actually need one. Same as you don't actually need 2,500 miles. They're just filters to stop people wasting their time & money and attempting the exam when they're not ready.

For my Coastal Skipper exam the examiner looked at the miles we'd put down on the form, handed back the log books unopened to each candidate and said if they were wrong we'd soon see.

For the YM exam the examiner spent about 20 mins browsing each log book and asked about various trips.

You've got to do a lot of sailing to get to be an RYA YM Examiner so, based on my experience, they are pretty smart as sussing out the candidates. Just write up a fair list of what you've done, especially in the last ten years, and let them see that.

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

AFAIK you shouldn't need a log book of any kind. IIRC you're able to totally self cert the lot.

Also you don't need signatures, which begs the question why the waster the space in the log book.

Personally I think the whole idea of a paper log book in this day and age is a joke. Easier in electronic form, easier to search and easier to back up.

 

[Babylon]

No need to get too hung up on the fine detail, just summarise and total your previous mileage, rounded to the nearest 1,000NM. You've clearly got the experience.

 

[wotayottie]

Can I transcribe sufficient passages into a new RYA/YA format logbook and submit this. The person at the school was unsure.

Of course you can. I would not encourage you to tell porkies but the examiner has no practical way of checking up on what you say. I knew I had easily exceeded the required mileage but with incomplete records ( does anyone record all the trips they make?) I simply made up trips to fill in the gaps.

In the end the examiner is judging you on how you do on the day and a paper record of the past tells him nothing.

 

[Neil]

When I did my Day's kipper, the RYA instructor told me to put everything I did on my own boat down in summarised format to save space in the RYA log. Most of my sailing is no more than 3 or 4 miles out of the harbour, but he said to put that in anyway, even though it's only an open dayboat. The instructor for the Coastal course said that wouldn't qualify for any mileage requirements further down the line - not that I'll be making any 60 Nm passages on my little boat..........

 

[Roberto]

At the YM exam I was away from my home port and on my own boat, so basic geography told that during the previous two years I had made a lot more than the strictly needed mileage and qualifying passages, the examiner just asked "how many miles tidal, and non tidal?"

I did not count them so I could not give a precise figure, he just said "give me an indication so that I can write it on the RYA examination paper"

no mention of RYA logbook, same as other have said above




I guess if one is ever involved in an accident, this information allows the RYA to build their report like "the skipper was a qualified YM since XXX and had sailed xxx miles"

 

[peterb]

An RYA log book just has a row per trip with the basic details, miles (tidal or not), days, night hours. You should also have a separate list of trips over 60M.

Yachtmaster Offshore needs you to have done 2500 miles and at least five passages over 60nm. The RYA logbook has a special page for recording those five passages. At least two of them must be as skipper, and at least two must be overnight. If you aren't using the RYA logbook, then work out which five passages you are going to use and put them on to a separate list.

 

[mcframe]

When I did my Day's kipper, the RYA instructor told me to put everything I did on my own boat down in summarised format to save space in the RYA log. Most of my sailing is no more than 3 or 4 miles out of the harbour, but he said to put that in anyway, even though it's only an open dayboat. The instructor for the Coastal course said that wouldn't qualify for any mileage requirements further down the line - not that I'll be making any 60 Nm passages on my little boat..........

My G15 logbook† is mainly >100<200 week-long cruises, with a fair number of cross-channels and races (and a solo 37 NM round Nab ;-) 18 to 80 foot.

I look forward to being questioned about the entry for 35 days, 758 NM last year - "Err, no, that was the *whole season* on our ikkle family boat!."

Other skippers seem to really appreciate being asked to sign logbooks - it's quite a nice thing to do at the end of a trip on a different boat - and an excuse for them to buy a rubber boat stamp.

† ~6,000 miles, and only two spaces left - really must get round to booking an exam...

 

[Ariadne]

It's a strange thing the 2K miles and experience isn't it. The add few qualifying passages of over 60 miles and x hours of night watches, whether its tidal or not and its very daunting for most people.

My Mrs has over 10K miles logged and 90% of them well over 48 hours a time, 200 mile passages and many, many night hours on watch in all sorts of **** conditions (she only records adverse sailing now!!), and she still thinks she doesn't have enough experience to do a YM exam. I trust her (with qualms at all) with my life and the lives of my children to get the boat safely and competently to any safe harbor from anywhere on the sea without me on-board in most conditions - hurricanes/typhoons & cyclones excused, and I'm pretty sure she'd give every thing she had should the need arise in those conditions.

I'm not so sure that the way the RYA deals with experience is the right way, I think the MN way is far better as it deals with (officially logged) experience and signed testimonials only, with written and then an (pretty grueling!) oral exam. By the time you get there, your boat handling should be pretty much spot on - so no practical exam.

Not sure the RYA practical examiners would like this approach though?

 

[Doug_Stormforce]

I learned to sail in the 70's before yachting qualifications existed although I did do a theory course at the local college but you didn't get a qualification unless you went on to work in the industry. So the only bit of paper I have is a Queensland powerboat licence and this won't even get you an ICC since Queensland is a state not a country.

Now I find people want a piece of paper before a charter or crew offer. So I though I would do the yachtmaster course and exam. The sailing school tells me I'll need a logbook showing 2500 miles of passages over 60 miles, etc. Not a problem I though, I'll just give them the ships log. Going back 4 or 5 years should cover it.

But then 2 problems emerged. It's a share boat so I wasn't there for some of the passages in the log, and I often use a shorthand code to record details like weather forecasts, crew, radio skeds, etc. Plus the logbook is a bit tatty with pages of race tactical plans not related to a particular passage, coffee and claret stains, pens running out, gratuitous comments about sub standard spinnaker handling, competitor's boats, people not filling up the fuel, etc.

Can I transcribe sufficient passages into a new RYA/YA format logbook and submit this. The person at the school was unsure.

And what sort of log entries are usual. Again, the person at the school suggested hourly position, sea and wind state and course but I usually only record something in the log when there's a change. A change of course, sails, wind, will warrant an entry but if nothing changes for 6 hours then there's no entry. Also I don't usually record who is on watch or who did what during a sail change.

Finally, I notice there is a column for the signature of the instructor/training officer/skipper. Since I was the skipper for these passages can I sign my own entries?

The RYA logbook is one way of recording miles but it is not compulsory. However at a fiver, or a few pence more it is an easy solution, you could however use a simple spreadsheet of your own design. It sounds like you have already got one though. There is a page where you can retrospectivly summarise experience by whole seasons rather than passage by passage.

Yes, as skipper you should sign the entries yourself.

As an examiner I don't get upset if a candidate does not have a logbook, but it is a useful starting point of conversation if I can flick through a summary of their yachting experience.

There are occasionally people whose experience is fiction and this becomes fairly obvious as the exam progresses. I had a candidate last year whol failed and then blamed it on the fact he had never skippered (despite 24 hrs earlier telling me he had skippered 1000's of miles).

The RYA sail cruising logbook is not for recording hourly fixes and I am surprised a sea school was unsure about this, I can only assume you were talking to someone separate from operations or sales. It is a fairly basic question we get asked daily.

Best of luck with the prep course and exam.

 

[Simondjuk]

It's a strange thing the 2K miles and experience isn't it. The add few qualifying passages of over 60 miles and x hours of night watches, whether its tidal or not and its very daunting for most people.

My Mrs has over 10K miles logged and 90% of them well over 48 hours a time, 200 mile passages and many, many night hours on watch in all sorts of **** conditions (she only records adverse sailing now!!), and she still thinks she doesn't have enough experience to do a YM exam. I trust her (with qualms at all) with my life and the lives of my children to get the boat safely and competently to any safe harbor from anywhere on the sea without me on-board in most conditions - hurricanes/typhoons & cyclones excused, and I'm pretty sure she'd give every thing she had should the need arise in those conditions.

I'm not so sure that the way the RYA deals with experience is the right way, I think the MN way is far better as it deals with (officially logged) experience and signed testimonials only, with written and then an (pretty grueling!) oral exam. By the time you get there, your boat handling should be pretty much spot on - so no practical exam.

Not sure the RYA practical examiners would like this approach though?

I'm not in any way suggesting that the following applies to your good lady wife, but the problem with relying solely on years/miles of experience as a benchmark for handing out Yachtmasters is that many people spend decades and thousands of miles honing bad habits and refining bizarre practices, mostly because they've never been shown the proper and sensible way to do things.

In a body such as the MN, that wouldn't be allowed to happen as people are overseen and therefore guided.

In contrast, on a private yacht there is no supervision and no one to write testimonials from time to time, so poor seamanship goes unchecked and can even develop over time into something of an art form. You know the sort, they arrive in a 40 plus foot quality modern classic, trying to pick up a buoy downwind and down tide, the Mrs in her dressing gown with rollers in her hair being dragged off the bow having hooked the pick up buoy, 'The Captain' at the helm shouting 'Pull it in woman! Get it on the cleat damn it!', as if he'd be somehow more capable of stopping 15 tons of boat from 3 knots with one hand and a skinny aluminum pole. You just know if you ask, you'll find they've been sailing for 30 years and tens of thousands of miles, yet they don't know many of the basics.

Should such practices be tacitly acknowledged as correct and acceptable by way of the issue of a certificate of competence simply because it's how they've done it for 30 years?

 

[snowleopard]

There is no need to go through the hoops of a full YM Offshore to get a paper for chartering. An ICC is all you need and you can get one of those with a Dazed Kipper certificate or just get examined for an ICC direct.

Looking at the RYA website, here are the details of getting the ICC. Another route is to go for the YM Coastal (formerly Coastal Skipper) which requires fewer miles (The RYA website is obscure on this point).

 

[Mark-1]

There is no need to go through the hoops of a full YM Offshore to get a paper for chartering. An ICC is all you need and you can get one of those with a Dazed Kipper certificate or just get examined for an ICC direct.

I've been chartering and crewing all my adult life with no qualifications. Depending on where the OP wishes to charter he might find another firm in the same area that doesn't need any paperwork.

 

[claymore]

There was a debate in the very early 1980s about having a pre - entry assessment for dinghy sailors wishing to do the RYA Instructor award, entry to which, at that time, was for holders of the old RYA Advanced sailing cert.
There was much cogitation and various timeframes suggesred from a weekend down to half a day
John Jameson who was the RYA scotland National Coach suggested 5 minutes was long enough. I agreed at the time and see a resonance here

 

[onesea]

There was a debate in the very early 1980s about having a pre - entry assessment for dinghy sailors wishing to do the RYA Instructor award, entry to which, at that time, was for holders of the old RYA Advanced sailing cert.
There was much cogitation and various timeframes suggesred from a weekend down to half a day
John Jameson who was the RYA scotland National Coach suggested 5 minutes was long enough. I agreed at the time and see a resonance here

But then you could go for the pre-assessment and before you even get near a boat, get told to go home and come back when you have done your level 1-3 dinghy.

After considerable protesting being "allowed" to sit pre-asesment and passed. Then ended up "crewing" for couple of the local boys who where struggling without the rudder .

You just have to trust the examiners judgement. Then would they fail for saying "Lee-Ho" instead of "helms alee" as some on here seem to suggest?

Or switching the main sheet from one hand to the other during the gybe not after?

 

[claymore]

Hi
I accept all that - I was suggesting that someone who has logged 2500 miles as skipper will be instantly recognised by the skills and confidence they display from the outset - just as someone who had the standard could turn up for assessment and it was obvious from the moment they stepped in the boat.
Rather not go down the road of whether they tacked or gybed according to Bob Bond's 'method'!

 

[john_morris_uk]

The RYA logbook is one way of recording miles but it is not compulsory. However at a fiver, or a few pence more it is an easy solution, you could however use a simple spreadsheet of your own design. It sounds like you have already got one though. There is a page where you can retrospectivly summarise experience by whole seasons rather than passage by passage.

Yes, as skipper you should sign the entries yourself.

As an examiner I don't get upset if a candidate does not have a logbook, but it is a useful starting point of conversation if I can flick through a summary of their yachting experience.

There are occasionally people whose experience is fiction and this becomes fairly obvious as the exam progresses. I had a candidate last year whol failed and then blamed it on the fact he had never skippered (despite 24 hrs earlier telling me he had skippered 1000's of miles).

The RYA sail cruising logbook is not for recording hourly fixes and I am surprised a sea school was unsure about this, I can only assume you were talking to someone separate from operations or sales. It is a fairly basic question we get asked daily.

Best of luck with the prep course and exam.

if its any help, and speaking as another examiner I agree totally with Doug. The requirement that we have is to satisfy ourselves that the candidate has the required experience. Of course that means that some people might be tempted to produce fictitious records but as others have said, it's soon pretty obvious whether someone has the experience or not... Furthermore, like many examiners I have sailed over most of Europe and lots of the Med and USA and some of the Carib. It's an unusual log book that doesn't include a few places I've sailed into so conversations about some of the places can be very revealing!

The whole business of what sort of experience and how it should be accounted for is revisited periodically by the RYA but the conclusion is that the current system remains the best compromise.