RYA VAT Again!

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robbieg

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I note from the latest RYA newsletter that the RYA claim to have got a definitive (my language may be a big strong) note from HMRC on VAT on boats.

Apparently I can access it in the members area but the site won't let me register (I am a member honest-I joined because the offered me a free ICC). Does any forumite know what it says. Ta.
 
I just checked. In about 10 minutes of searching everything I found was at least six months old and did not appear to be what you are looking for. The most relevant was this (undated) piece:

"HMRC TO CREATE NEW PLEASURE CRAFT UNIT OF EXPERTISE

At an HMRC/pleasure craft associations liaison meeting earlier this week HMRC announced that it would shortly be creating a new Pleasure Craft Unit of Expertise (UoE) to support its operational and National Advice Service (NAS) staff. They believe the new unit will help improve working relations between HMRC and the yachting/pleasure craft community and in particular, lead to better quality communications and Public Notices about yacht issues. The UoE, which will operate out of offices at Portsmouth and Avonmouth, will commence operations on 1 June 2007.

The main role of the new Unit will be to provide operational and technical advice, training and support to HMRC staff who deal with the pleasure craft sector around the UK. The Unit will also actively support HMRC staff who work in the National Advice Service (NAS). This should result in the provision of better quality and more consistent advice to businesses and members of the public who use the HMRC National Advice Service (NAS).

In its first few months the UoE will seek to develop effective working relationships with the yachting associations so that HMRC has a better informed understanding of the issues that are of concern or interest to the yacht and pleasure craft community. But it should be noted, that the UoE will not provide a general helpline to businesses or members of the public.

At the meeting HMRC commented that they hope that the creation of the new Unit will be of benefit to both the tax administration as well as members of the yachting community as a whole. "

The RYA was assured that the formation of the UoE would provide the NAS with a continuous resource of expertise to enable it to deal with the boating public's enquiries and we now need to establish that this is the case.

In order to monitor whether the NAS is achieving this objective, we have produced a data capture form which we would encourage you to complete if you have contacted the NAS for advice regarding the VAT status of a boat.

Please follow this link to access the form.

www.rya.org.uk/NASFeedback
 
[ QUOTE ]

"HMRC TO CREATE NEW PLEASURE CRAFT UNIT OF EXPERTISE

At an HMRC/pleasure craft associations liaison meeting earlier this week HMRC announced that it would shortly be creating a new Pleasure Craft Unit of Expertise (UoE) to support its operational and National Advice Service (NAS) staff. They believe the new unit will help improve working relations between HMRC and the yachting/pleasure craft community and in particular, lead to better quality communications and Public Notices about yacht issues. The UoE, which will operate out of offices at Portsmouth and Avonmouth, will commence operations on 1 June 2007.



[/ QUOTE ]

/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

They are/should have been up and running for nearly 2 years now - and no-one's noticed /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif
 
I had hours of discussions and correspondence with HMRC several months ago regarding proof of VAT payment but one and all were adamant that the only acceptable prooof of VAT payment on a boat was the original suppliers Invoice showing VAT paid. The purchaser of my boat, eventually, accepted a letter, or phone call I forget which, from RYA indicating that a certified copy of original Invoice was acceptable as proof of Vat payment . HMRC staff, one and all, were less than helpful and lacking in knowledge but Mandy Peters of RYA was a grat help.
 
[ QUOTE ]
I note from the latest RYA newsletter that the RYA claim to have got a definitive (my language may be a big strong) note from HMRC on VAT on boats.

[/ QUOTE ]
Had the same one today. Rather an out of date leaflet.

[ QUOTE ]
Apparently I can access it in the members area but the site won't let me register

[/ QUOTE ]
Did exactly the same as you, with the same result!
 
The RYA were looking for a new webmaster recently. Part of the posts remit would have been to sort this sort of thing out no doubt.

Too far for me to travel ( 100 miles each way ) and the salary wouldn't pay my travel costs and mortgage put together! /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
 
The RYA were looking for a new webmaster recently. Part of the posts remit would have been to sort this sort of thing out no doubt.

Too far for me to travel ( 100 miles each way ) and the salary wouldn't pay my travel costs and mortgage put together!
 
Depends what you mean by 'information'. The only text I find dated Dec 2008 falls firmly into the 'Motherhood' category and useful stuff like:

Both the RYA and the BMF are presently negotiating with government officials to see if we can come up with a package that provides comprehensive proof of a boat’s VAT status in order to take away the inconsistencies created by the current scheme.

In the context of this thread I found almost nothing.
 
I did not have an original VAT receipt for the boat.
I got together copies of all my paperwork including bills of sale etc (and---no I couldn't prove that the boat was in the UK in December 19-- whatever) Sent them to Customs and Excise. Bristol and got a letter back saying quite a few things but with the key statement..."VAT IS DEEMED TO HAVE BEEN PAID".
My basic point was that IF they didn,t believe VAT had been paid, they should be coming after me to get it!!
I don't imagine the letter will really impress a grumpy foreign official on a bad day particularly as "DEEMED" will not be in his dictionary-----but what the hell, it's something to show the purhaser when the second happiest day of my life comes around. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
When did you do this? HMCE offered a service some years ago where they would certify the VAT status if you sent the right documents. They withdrew it a few year back.
 
Hi "wooslehunter", it was five years ago.

What I wanted was some certification but, as you rightly say , this was withdrawn and I had to make do with a letter which "clarified" my VAT status.
In common with a previous thread on the subject, I have NEVER been asked to produce VAT documentation but it will be useful when selling.
Cheers
 
interesting but a bit impractical for those of us who have neither the time nor the money to fight foreign authorities. In practical terms the law that applies to us is what the douainier or policeman decides applies. No problem in the UK but I wouldnt want to mess up a cruise with a losing argument in (say) France.
 
But in reality the "foreign officials" just like HMRC are not in the least bit interested in VAT unless they suspect there is a scam going on such as the "cross borders" leasing schemes, or yachts arriving from outside the EU and trying to avoid VAT, or companies committing VAT offences that happen to involve yachts.

As you will see if you go through the long threads in the past, there is no way an individual can ever be asked to pay VAT unless they have committed an offence, of which the most common is importing a boat without paying duty and VAT. There are no offences an individual can commit under VAT law unless they are VAT registered. The responsibility for accounting for VAT is with the vendor, not the buyer, unless the buyer is purchasing by way of business and is VAT registered.

The reason that HMRC stopped providing declarations of VAT status is because firstly the concept does not exist - VAT is on a transaction (chargeable event) not an asset and secondly it is impossible to confirm that VAT has been accounted for in respect of an individual asset or indeed transaction. There is no requirement to account for the tax with reference to an asset. Those of you who complete VAT returns will know that there is no obligation to record exactly what the transaction was related to. You are required to provide a description of the goods, but not, for example to record the identity of the boat such as its HIN There is also no obligation to keep any VAT records longer than 6 years.

The bind HMRC (and all other EU authorities) have got themselves into is that quite rightly they wanted to ensure that yachts could move freely in the EU without paying VAT in every country they visit. However, they did not think through the implications of this, and for that reason all the fears of boats being impounded etc have never come to fruition!

Unfortunately, as the origin of the VAT part of HMRC is in Customs and Excise which historically had extensive powers over individuals, they still cling to that perceived power and give the impression that they can demand that you hold documents such as original VAT invoices that they have no legal right to ask for. This is completely illogical because the law is very clear. Where a transcation is a chargeable event the vendor is responsible for accounting for VAT. Where the transaction is a non-chargeable event, such as a sale by one private EU resident to another, there is no VAT and therefore no VAT invoice. So, if you have bought a boat from a private EU resident there is no way you can ever be asked by anybody to pay VAT. As this applies to the vast majority of boats in the EU at this point in time, you can see why this whole debate is pointless!

However, these arguments have never been tested, mainly because as far as I know HMRC has never tried to charge an individual boat owner VAT just because s/he is unable to produce an original invoice.

In the meantime all of us have to put up with the myth that the document is important and people or bodies that should know better such as brokers and finance companies go along with the charade, thus hindering perfectly legal transactions between private EU residents.
 
Here, here. Really interesting thread with great input from JFM.

I accept there may be practical difficulties if going overseas (although they seem to be vastly overstated) but, ignoring fraud where special rules would apply, all (!) I want is for HMRC is to tell us what piece of legislation says that if I buy a boat from an EU citizen or business ( whether new or used) and cannot produce a piece of paper that shows VAT has been paid I am liable to pay VAT on the boat. If such a law exists then fine we need to accept and deal with it. However, if as I suspect, it doesn't exist (except perhaps in very limited circumstances) then individuals can take their own view on how important a VAT invoice is depending on how they will use the boat.

Rather that trying to mollify HMRC the RYA should in my view be trying to get to the bottom of the law and HMRC's powers in this area and then setting out clearly what our legal obligations are. The RYA, brokers and the whole boating industry seem to have simply accepted that because HMRC have said we have to prove VAT status they have legally got the right to do this.

A while ago Sailing Today got a campaign going on mooring rights with input from a barrister. Don't understand why YM or PBO don't do something similar with this issue-find out what the law actually says and then take it from there. Alternatively there may be a young tax accountant or barrister reading who would like to make his/her name in this area....
 
I agree about the need to challenge HMRC. However there are a number of reasons why it has not been done. I think the first thing is that in reality their stance has very little impact. Therefore there is not a large number of unhappy people. Secondly there are many vested interests in keeping the status quo, not least the HMRC officials whose jobs depend in maintaining the myth. Finally there does not seem to be a political will.

I have just registered for VAT in another capacity. The seminar I attended at the tax office was delivered by a "normal" tax person with a VAT person standing by. They expressly made the point that the two sides of the house were integrating and they needed to present a united front!

Traditionally C&E have seen themselves as breed apart. Maybe this is a sign of a change in attitude.
 
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