RYA Theory, GPS, Galileo and Card Readers!

roblpm said:
All true. And I have a hundredth of your experience.

But it is also true that for most people most of the time they will be position fixing by gps. Except when on an rya course. Why not teach people how to navigate with gps and how in an emergency to do without?
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Because in an emergency they'd be trying to remember stuff that at the time they half-learnt it they mentally pigeonholed as "not very important".

GPS does stop working and/or get deliberately jammed: have lost all GPS signals quite a few times (though not in UK), also seen my GPS plotter track run right across the hilltop of a substantial island (again not in UK). And ultimately anything electronic can go wrong, particularly if well enough doused in salt water.

And re heaving to off Ilfracombe and waiting for daylight, you really don't know about Bristol Channel tides.....
 
jwilson said:
Because in an emergency they'd be trying to remember stuff that at the time they half-learnt it they mentally pigeonholed as "not very important".

GPS does stop working and/or get deliberately jammed: have lost all GPS signals quite a few times (though not in UK), also seen my GPS plotter track run right across the hilltop of a substantial island (again not in UK). And ultimately anything electronic can go wrong, particularly if well enough doused in salt water.

And re heaving to off Ilfracombe and waiting for daylight, you really don't know about Bristol Channel tides.....
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But surely when the gps dies most people will be scratching their heads anyway as i just don't believe people are routinely doing this stuff.

Anyway clear that I am wrong/ahead of my time/out of step with the general forum consensus. So excuse me while I get back to my studying. By February I will be a nav expert, no gps to be seen!
 
roblpm said:
But surely when the gps dies most people will be scratching their heads anyway as i just don't believe people are routinely doing this stuff.
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I have been having fun with a young lady (not that kind of fun!) as she tries to convert her shore-based YM nav to the reality of compass sights, real shorescapes and charts. She initially wanted to use only the GPS but she's been won over. The gap between theory and a bouncy boat is considerable as is the distance between her derived positions and the GPS's but she is getting better and considerably slicker in doing it. One thing that has really improved is her situational awareness - she can now put her finger on the chart to show where we roughly are, when she started she didn't have a skooby.
I don't know about others than my small circle of acquaintances, but we/they tend to have a HBC available at all times and use it for collision avoidance and position lines on a regular basis despite GPS/chart plotter - mainly 'cos they can.
 
A note on GPS accuracy first.
People who are used to car GPS have been fooled to believe that the GPS signals are far more accurate than they are because the the software use algorithms to put the vehicle on the correct road, so inaccuracies gets masked. Chart plotters for boat use can't do this because we can be anywhere on the water.

The radio signals from the GPS satelites (and all other existing and future satellite radio based systems) can be affected by radiation from the sun and from local earth based sources (deliberate jamming or other sources).

Producing corrections to GPS position data have become a new income for Kartverket (The Norwegian chart agency) they have a service called CPOS with better accuracy than DGPS.

In my home waters I have observed that my GPS put the boat in the wrong position several times - not so much that it would be a problem offshore (assuming I have reasonable safety margins) but if I was trying to do "Nintendo navigation" (Navigation by chart plotter instead using navaids) inshore I would soon find a hard rock with my keel.

The number of groundings have increased in the last few years here in Norway and the insurance companies suspect that "Nintendo navigation" has contributed to this.

Some years ago a large MOBO hit a small island and sank, they followed a track on the chart plotter and failed to verify their position - is was good visibility and the rock should have been easy to spot.

roblpm said:
But surely when the gps dies most people will be scratching their heads anyway as i just don't believe people are routinely doing this stuff.

Anyway clear that I am wrong/ahead of my time/out of step with the general forum consensus. So excuse me while I get back to my studying. By February I will be a nav expert, no gps to be seen!
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When I sail within sight of land / navaids http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Navigational_aid I will always verify my position using those navaids and some times my GPS position is off.

The problem with including more advanced chart plotter use into a navigation course is that chart plotters (MFD's) are all different with regards to menus and functions.

But learning proper navigation should give a good basis for understanding how to use a chart plotter.
 
awol said:
I have been having fun with a young lady (not that kind of fun!) as she tries to convert her shore-based YM nav to the reality of compass sights, real shorescapes and charts. She initially wanted to use only the GPS but she's been won over. The gap between theory and a bouncy boat is considerable as is the distance between her derived positions and the GPS's but she is getting better and considerably slicker in doing it. One thing that has really improved is her situational awareness - she can now put her finger on the chart to show where we roughly are, when she started she didn't have a skooby.
I don't know about others than my small circle of acquaintances, but we/they tend to have a HBC available at all times and use it for collision avoidance and position lines on a regular basis despite GPS/chart plotter - mainly 'cos they can.
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I was going to stop posting in this thread as i am obviously flogging a dead horse but.......

My point has nothing to do with my situational awareness. I was a reasonable standard orienteerer as a kid, have done a lot of walking in remote areas of india, nepal and south America with a map and compass before gps. So give me a map/chart and i will tell you where we are with nothing apart from my eyes.

I just dont see that position fixing should ignore that most of the time people will be using their gps!! So the emphasis should be on double checking the gps etc. Not pretending it doesn't exist!
 
roblpm said:
... I just dont see that position fixing should ignore that most of the time people will be using their gps!! So the emphasis should be on double checking the gps etc. Not pretending it doesn't exist!
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No RYA course tries to pretend GPS doesn't exist. All they do is add techniques to your toolbox of navigation knowledge and from your experience you pick out and use the appropriate one(s) in any given situation. More and more I see people navigating from the screen alone without reference to their actual surroundings. Mark I eyeball, compass and paper chart will never be replaced with a more reliable or accurate electronic system.
 
I did YM theory when GPS was still being developed, and the practical quite a few years ago.

So I've seen the way GPS has changed things.
I really would not have been able to enter Cherbourg in 10yard visibility by dead reckoning.
I know how easy gPS is.

But, if you cannot as an exercise put GPS aside and make DR, 3 point fixes, following a contour and those archaic things work, how can you show you actually understand other methods?

Also, many of the 'old' methods stll have relevance, particularly in pilotage.
If you know you need a clearing bearing on a headland for instance, you can do that in your head without leaving the tiller to look at the plotter.

Having a proper understanding of the old methods will help you, particularly when shorthanded, sometimes you don't actually want to know your lat and long to 5 decimal places, you want to know if you're crossing the edge of a safe area, while doing 3 other things. Sometimes that's as simple as 'tack when we get down to 10m depth'.
 
AngusMcDoon said:
There are already 2, GPS and Glonass. Galileo will be number 3. Latest receivers use both GPS and Glonass.
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Nope, Galileo will be the 5th, Bei-Du and IRNSS join GPS and Glonas.

All equally affected by a lightning strike.

I don't use GPS, I enjoy navigating.
 
I'm teaching a day skipper theory course just now and i'm finding this conversation really fascinating. I agree that everyone uses GPS and therefore the knowledge we teach regarding trad nav is for muppets like me who have very old boats and no gps or for emergencies. The real question I have is what else do you think we should be teaching regarding GPS. From a personal standpoint (i'm early 30s) there's not a whole lot of time to spend on GPS nav - it's easy. So we teach the benefits and pitfalls of computer game nav and move on to the stuff that does take time to learn.

J
 
roblpm said:
But surely when the gps dies most people will be scratching their heads anyway as i just don't believe people are routinely doing this stuff.

Anyway clear that I am wrong/ahead of my time/out of step with the general forum consensus. So excuse me while I get back to my studying. By February I will be a nav expert, no gps to be seen!
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Can't speak for any one else.
I routinely navigate by visual means using a variety of techniques.
I do have a GPS I find it good for telling the time. I use it to navigate when further off shore.
I don't have a plotter, unless you include a Breton Plotter.
I have a RADAR. I only ever turned on to see if it works.

The traditional class room chart work exercises are taught to help you understand the process.
I rarely if ever plot out a tide set drift and leeway. but by being able to do so I can quickly guestimate and allow as necessary for the conditions I meet.

There is a world off difference between the classroom, chart table and the cockpit. A good understanding of the theory enables you to put into practice what you need to find your way.

A prudent navigator never relies on just one method of determining his position. If there is more than one available.
When the two don’t add up. Your intuition or 6th sense will kick in.
 
I've had THREE different GPS devices all fail on a single trip before, they failed for various reasons, one got wet, one screen malfunctioned and one had battery issues. A basic grounding in pencil navigation is never a bad idea!
 
Slycat said:
I've had THREE different GPS devices all fail on a single trip before, they failed for various reasons, one got wet, one screen malfunctioned and one had battery issues. A basic grounding in pencil navigation is never a bad idea!
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A course on electronic equipment maintenance might be in order!
I've had a pencil run out of lead, but I knew how to mend it :)

Please don't take me too seriously ;)
 
LadyInBed said:
A course on electronic equipment maintenance might be in order!
I've had a pencil run out of lead, but I knew how to mend it :)

Please don't take me too seriously ;)
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This was partially my point in the first place. I am confident in my ability to have a working gps on my boat. Unless some sort of very rare emf type of thing. In which case I will navigate by traditional methods. But only in an emergency or on my rya course. I am pretty sure that in the rare case of some amazing failure i will not die because my position fixing is rusty.
 
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