RYA Theory, GPS, Galileo and Card Readers!

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roblpm

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Just doing my Coastal/Yachtmaster theory.

Droning on about swinging compasses, EPs, 3 point fixes etc etc.

This has been covered a zillion times on here before but Wikipedia states Galileo is live in 2019.

How long until we really admit that its not very likely that we wont know where we are.

So I'm not proposing not taking paper charts but what I am proposing is that there is an assumption that we know where we are!!

A handheld gps can be picked up for less than £10 so I can have 10 spares on my boat all with fresh batteries. So people who say total electrics failure zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz are not going to convince me. I think I would be happy in the middle of the atlantic with a handheld gps and a paper chart.

Then everyone says what about if the GPS system is unavailable??...........................

Well OK lets not go this way until 2019 when there are 2 systems??

But then ...............................................

When I learnt about computers I didnt learn about card readers. I learnt about how it is now. Why is it that sailing and the RYA need to live in the 50s??!!

Back to studying. I shall go on the course and demonstrate I understand it and then never use it again!!

Just to be ageist, I am 45 and I would be interested if anyone my age or younger disagrees!!
 
When I wrote that I hadnt even got on to the next 5 methods of plotting a position, the most ludicrous of which is range and bearing using a gps range to a waypoint!! If I am using the gps why not just write down a position??!!

I have been truly lost once. In the himalayas in the days before gps and in an area where there were no good maps. What did we do? Went back the way we came. No drama. I suppose that is more difficult in the middle of an ocean but assuming one had a compass and a chart evenb if you didnt know where you were you could head in one direction until you got somewhere!! Heave to at night. Live on the 1000 tins of beans you have for emergencies??!!
 
AngusMcDoon said:
There are already 2, GPS and Glonass. Galileo will be number 3. Latest receivers use both GPS and Glonass.
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Aha silly me! But Angus you dont say whether you agree that position fixing should be dropped from the RYA syllabus and something more useful put in instead!!??!!

Just checked and as you say my phone supports glonass.
 
So why bother paying money for the course? You appear to neither appreciate nor feel you need it. What about tides - only needed when close enough to shore for a mobile signal; meteorology - gribs?; IRPCS - available as an app for easy light and shape recognition? Is any of it necessary?

Having survived Joint Warrior messing about with GPS - ok, so it only happens once a year - I am just a tad loathe to rely solely on remote electro-magnetic emanations for my position information. I wonder if the powers that be will use their control over GPS to confuse the zombies when the apocalypse comes?
 
There is no doubt that being on the water, finding your way from a to b and knowing where the tide is going is all available via your phone and GPS. However for me there is something deeper about a greater understanding of how to navigate without electronics. To understand why the tide goes up and down and understand the relevance of nautical miles and knots, as well as an understanding of meteorology so we can see why the forecast says what it does. Theory also lets us understand all the signs and marks on a chart so we can work out where we can go and were we cant. Its not everyone's cup of tea but I find the old theory fun, but hey we can all do what we want as long as we are safe.
 
Just a few days ago, there was a nav warning that GPS jamming trials were to be held AGAIN in a radius of 35 n miles of Faraid Head. War games. I presume that the jamming would affect all forms of satellite navigation systems. It's quite serious, it means that the Local Council doesn't know where the bucket lorry is hiding.
 
awol said:
So why bother paying money for the course? You appear to neither appreciate nor feel you need it. What about tides - only needed when close enough to shore for a mobile signal; meteorology - gribs?; IRPCS - available as an app for easy light and shape recognition? Is any of it necessary?

Having survived Joint Warrior messing about with GPS - ok, so it only happens once a year - I am just a tad loathe to rely solely on remote electro-magnetic emanations for my position information. I wonder if the powers that be will use their control over GPS to confuse the zombies when the apocalypse comes?
Click to expand...

Maybe I had too many strong coffees this morning. I love the course. I want to learn all there is to know. I enjoyed working the tides questions last week. I love learning about the weather and the colregs etc.

All I was trying to say that position fixing should be relegated to an emergency type of thing in case the satellite systems are nit available. Instead it is presented as the primary means of navigation which seems farcical as nearly everyone navigates by gps. It is just out of date and devalues the course.
 
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roblpm said:
Just doing my Coastal/Yachtmaster theory.

Droning on about swinging compasses, EPs, 3 point fixes etc etc.

This has been covered a zillion times on here before but Wikipedia states Galileo is live in 2019.

How long until we really admit that its not very likely that we wont know where we are.

So I'm not proposing not taking paper charts but what I am proposing is that there is an assumption that we know where we are!!

A handheld gps can be picked up for less than £10 so I can have 10 spares on my boat all with fresh batteries. So people who say total electrics failure zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz are not going to convince me. I think I would be happy in the middle of the atlantic with a handheld gps and a paper chart.

Then everyone says what about if the GPS system is unavailable??...........................

Well OK lets not go this way until 2019 when there are 2 systems??

But then ...............................................

When I learnt about computers I didnt learn about card readers. I learnt about how it is now. Why is it that sailing and the RYA need to live in the 50s??!!

Back to studying. I shall go on the course and demonstrate I understand it and then never use it again!!

Just to be ageist, I am 45 and I would be interested if anyone my age or younger disagrees!!
Click to expand...

I agree with you and I am 60+. Mind you I did once have a no GPS situation at 0100 hours pitch black apart from lightning strikes, howling wind , pi55ing rain and the electrical activi9ty simply blanked out satellite signals as I was approaching Ilfracombe harbour. Which is a PITA because there are so many shore lights of all colours you really need a bit of assistance. So it can happen but that is once only since GPS first arrived.

When sailing I usually have 7 gps on board ( plotter internal/ external, lappy dongle / 2 x handheld garmin / phone / tablet) paper charts and 4 sets of electronic charts. Not as a matter of policy, just whats accumulated. Interestingly when the last plotter went t1ts up, without thinking I reached out for the paper and pencil.
 
birdseye said:
I agree with you and I am 60+. Mind you I did once have a no GPS situation at 0100 hours pitch black apart from lightning strikes, howling wind , pi55ing rain and the electrical activi9ty simply blanked out satellite signals as I was approaching Ilfracombe harbour. Which is a PITA because there are so many shore lights of all colours you really need a bit of assistance. So it can happen but that is once only since GPS first arrived.

When sailing I usually have 7 gps on board ( plotter internal/ external, lappy dongle / 2 x handheld garmin / phone / tablet) paper charts and 4 sets of electronic charts. Not as a matter of policy, just whats accumulated. Interestingly when the last plotter went t1ts up, without thinking I reached out for the paper and pencil.
Click to expand...

Could you have heaved to until first light and then seen where you were going??
 
No. I was sailing my Prout cat at the time and as luck would have it, the top of the genoa had given way coming round Bull point so the genny was hanging down the roller reefing like Norah Batty's stockings. And I'd had enough anyway. So it was drop the main and go ahead cautiously on engine until I could see the harbour wall. Dodgy but thats life.

I suppose I could have trundled off up the bristol channel towards cardiff but another 6 hours or more didnt seem attractive after the 12 hours from Lands End..
 
One really big solar flare like the Carrington Event (19th century, so pre space age) would wipe out all GNSS (GPS, Glonass, Galileo) for an unknown period of time, from hours up to (potentially) however long it took to launch replacement satellites. Such flares DO happen on a time scale of one every hundred years or so (we know that from ice-cores). Such a flare would certainly knock out GNSS for the duration of the flare, and probably damage at least some of the satellites. On their pages about the Carrington event, NASA state that it would be impossible to shield satellites from the effects of a really big solar flare. Flares are also unpredictable on a time-scale that would help a yacht navigator.

When that happens, all ten of your GPS systems will be so many bricks.

Further, GPS gives your position relative to a datum called WGS84. Fine and dandy in western countries, where vast effort and expenditure by mapping and charting agencies have made sure that the maps and charts are compatible with that datum, and even here it couldn't be guaranteed until about ten years ago - perhaps less. However, in many parts of the world maps and charts rely on local surveys that may differ from WGS84 by hundreds of metres. Doesn't matter if you're navigating using compass and chart; your position will be off by the same amount as the chart. But the highly accurate GPS position will off relative to the chart by hundreds of metres, so you could navigate yourself right into a rock! It has happened in some quite high profile cases.

This state of affairs is widely reported from the eastern Mediterranean, and is commonplace in less developed nations.
 
AntarcticPilot said:
One really big solar flare like the Carrington Event (19th century, so pre space age) would wipe out all GNSS (GPS, Glonass, Galileo) for an unknown period of time, from hours up to (potentially) however long it took to launch replacement satellites. Such flares DO happen on a time scale of one every hundred years or so (we know that from ice-cores). Such a flare would certainly knock out GNSS for the duration of the flare, and probably damage at least some of the satellites. On their pages about the Carrington event, NASA state that it would be impossible to shield satellites from the effects of a really big solar flare. Flares are also unpredictable on a time-scale that would help a yacht navigator.

When that happens, all ten of your GPS systems will be so many bricks.

Further, GPS gives your position relative to a datum called WGS84. Fine and dandy in western countries, where vast effort and expenditure by mapping and charting agencies have made sure that the maps and charts are compatible with that datum, and even here it couldn't be guaranteed until about ten years ago - perhaps less. However, in many parts of the world maps and charts rely on local surveys that may differ from WGS84 by hundreds of metres. Doesn't matter if you're navigating using compass and chart; your position will be off by the same amount as the chart. But the highly accurate GPS position will off relative to the chart by hundreds of metres, so you could navigate yourself right into a rock! It has happened in some quite high profile cases.

This state of affairs is widely reported from the eastern Mediterranean, and is commonplace in less developed nations.
Click to expand...

All true. And I have a hundredth of your experience.

But it is also true that for most people most of the time they will be position fixing by gps. Except when on an rya course. Why not teach people how to navigate with gps and how in an emergency to do without?
 
roblpm said:
I am 45 and I would be interested if anyone my age or younger disagrees!!
Click to expand...
Er urmm, I am older and respectfully disagree with your position.

About 34 years ago I did my Day Skipper, before the wonders of GPS, then I took 20 years off to go climbing, raise a family and do all that stuff. Having recently come back to the sport I am amazed at the ease that GPS has made navigation and have done the YM theory course. But, and it is a huge but, it is only one tool in the bag.

When you are struck by Sod's Law of the Sea and your whizzing electrons have stopped whizzing and all your spare batteries are wet and given up the ghost those long not used skills may need to be called on. As you drag your 1985 paper chart out of the chart table and look at it and scratch your head saying where was the last fix, how do I do an EP and what was that running fix thing we did on the course your, perhaps terrified, crew are looking to you as the skipper to get them back to the pub in time for closing time or indeed from an early grave.

IMHO the RYA is aiming the training at the right level. Training people to use the fundamental tools of navigation, a chart, a compass, a straight edge and some simple maths. They also include some brilliant GPS stuff, e.g. fix on a compass rose and a web, so that these skills are taught. The one thing that I don't believe reliance on GPS gives is a true understanding of where you are at any moment in time, because we check the screen, it is knowing that the last fix was at position X and since then we have been doing Y knots at nnn degrees. Some call it spatial awareness, all done in your head all of the time, so when you check the chart you know where you are.

I don't care a fig leave if Galileo goes live as it won't make a hape worth of difference to accuracy.

I look forward to your posting when Sod's Law strikes and how things went.

P.S I sail a old boat with a handheld GPS and a whizzy VHF with internal GPS, and both are used to check my fixes.
 
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