RYA Spring Magazine - 'Star Letter'

[webcraft]

There is more plastic in the spare buttons on a shirt than in a years supply of carrier bags

A total of 8.0 billion ‘thin-gauge’ bags were issued in the UK in 2011. (WRAP, http://www.wrap.org.uk/content/new-figures-carrier-bags-use-released-wrap)

That is 303 bags per household - which seems a surprisingly modest number. Nonetheless . . .

The average carrier bag weights 15 grammes, therefore the total weight of a year's supply of carrier bags for a household is 4.500 grammes - or four and a half kilos.

Either there is somethig very odd about youir shirt buttons or you are just making stuff up again, somethungn you seemt to be in the habit of doing.


- W

 

[Nicholas123]

Oh, and wind farms slow the planet (not noticeably yet...) and may well be to blame for the shift in jet stream causing our odd summer weather - the research is waiting for some bright unbiased scientist to do.

This has got to be one of the most bizarre theories I think I have ever heard.I am not a fan of wind farms or the RYA but in the event that they shut down the Lounge I now know where I can go for bonkers content if the contributions in this thread are anything to go by

 

[Daydream believer]

That is 303 bags per household - which seems a surprisingly modest number. Nonetheless . . .

The average carrier bag weights 15 grammes, therefore the total weight of a year's supply of carrier bags for a household is 4.500 grammes - or four and a half kilos.

- W

So what's wrong with that?
The wife has got to carry the shopping in something

 

[webcraft]

So what's wrong with that?
The wife has got to carry the shopping in something

a) I didn't say there was anything wrong with it

b) In fact I didn't mention carrier bags at all in any shape of form until LustyD brought the subject up

c) I only posted to point out that his statement that there was more plastic in two shirt buttons than in a year's supply of carrier bags was arrant nonsense

d) This thread has been hijacked by people with a complete inability to concentrate on the subject in hand and an overwhelming desire to post made-up factoids about carrier bags and wind turbines or have (yet another) personal swipe at me.

The point of the thread was that the RYA Members magazine had awarded 'letter of the month' to a letter that had virtually nothing to do with boating, that made incorrect and unsupported statements about climate change and that appeared to be actively lobbying for more fossil fuel exploration in the Arctic.

This sort of material is fine in the Lounge, but as far as I am concerned it has no place in our members' magazine. The fact that it was awarded 'Star Letter' status makes it even more bizarre.

If you are not an RYA member or have not read the letter in question then really this thread is nothing to do with you. If however you do know what the thread is about then please try to focus on the issues raised in the original post.


- W

 

[NormanS]

Well, I haven't read the letter, because after being an RYA member for over 30 years, I was finding that the RYA in general, and their magazine in particular was too depressing, and entirely irrelevant to my type of sailing.

 

[Daydream believer]

a) I didn't say there was anything wrong with it

b) In fact I didn't mention carrier bags at all in any shape of form until LustyD brought the subject up

c) I only posted to point out that his statement that there was more plastic in two shirt buttons than in a year's supply of carrier bags was arrant nonsense

d) This thread has been hijacked by people with a complete inability to concentrate on the subject in hand and an overwhelming desire to post made-up factoids about carrier bags and wind turbines or have (yet another) personal swipe at me.

The point of the thread was that the RYA Members magazine had awarded 'letter of the month' to a letter that had virtually nothing to do with boating, that made incorrect and unsupported statements about climate change and that appeared to be actively lobbying for more fossil fuel exploration in the Arctic.

This sort of material is fine in the Lounge, but as far as I am concerned it has no place in our members' magazine. The fact that it was awarded 'Star Letter' status makes it even more bizarre.

If you are not an RYA member or have not read the letter in question then really this thread is nothing to do with you. If however you do know what the thread is about then please try to focus on the issues raised in the original post.


- W

If you read earlier post you will see i am an Rya member - possibly since before you were borne - but that is just a guess
You spoke about plastic bags as though there was a problem with them
Well like a lot of things it is only a problem to eco nutters
As for the original point of the thread i have already said I find sympathy with the letter
Plus i see no problem with it being letter of the week
What annoys me is the absolute conviction that eco types have that anything not in their itinerary is wrong
I further feel that whilst i fully agree that some pollution is wrong- chucking plastic bags in the sea when they could quite easily be buried is an example- i find it obnoxious that we should have things like windmills thrust down our throats & which i have to pay for when in fact they are inefficient waste.
They had their day grinding flour. Not cluttering the oceans at my expense
Conservation in moderation is good but not at a level that wastes this countries money & taxes our companies beyond any sensible level
So going back to the letter---- plus from me!!

 

[webcraft]

If you read earlier post you will see i am an Rya member - possibly since before you were borne - but that is just a guess
You spoke about plastic bags as though there was a problem with them

. . . . i find it obnoxious that we should have things like windmills thrust down our throats

I did no such thing. I replied to a piece of utter nonsense, not to attack plastic bags - a subject I have very little interest in - but in defence of common sense.

I doubt very much if you have been a member of the RYA since before I was born.

Quite sore having a windmill thrust down your throat I would imagine.

- W

 

[Plevier]

a) overwhelming desire to post made-up factoids about carrier bags
- W

Talking of which, just checked a Tesco bag which i would call pretty average, it's 5 grammes not 15.
Why do you have to exaggerate everything?

 

[Grumpybear]

Nuclear is good for the base load, but cannot react to peak demand.

Only because past and current nuclear plant is designed that way. Naval nuclear plant has always been capable of rapid load changing, and while there are clearly size and scale issues to be addressed, if there were a will to build flexible nuclear plant to the same safety standards as existing and planned base load plants, it could be done.

 

[Plevier]

In fact a recent report said wind could potentially power the planet many times over, so you may have just made the above up.

Could you link to your source please?

- W

Probably not the report lustyd saw but here's one http://www.globalwarming.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/Korchinski-Limits-of-Wind-Power.pdf that estimates a max realistic contribution of 20% at very high cost, probably more realistically 10%, a figure that has come up before.

Whatever your view, you can find a paper to support it, accusing people of making things up just because it conflicts with your own highly polarised view is both rude and unscientific.

 

[webcraft]

Probably not the report lustyd saw but here's one http://www.globalwarming.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/Korchinski-Limits-of-Wind-Power.pdf that estimates a max realistic contribution of 20% at very high cost, probably more realistically 10%, a figure that has come up before.

Whatever your view, you can find a paper to support it, accusing people of making things up just because it conflicts with your own highly polarised view is both rude and unscientific.

Sorry, but saying that a pair of shirt buttons contain more plastic than a years' worth of carrier bags IS just making things up. It is also incredibly lazy, as a very simple look at the quantities involved will show you that it is nonsense.

And if you want to believe drivel cobbled together by right wing libertarian US thinktanks sponsored by the fossil fuel industry over real science then that is your perogative, but please don't insult the intelligence of the rest of us by presenting it as a 'paper' with the same validity as, for example, the widely reported Stanford University research, which suggests that in fact wind energy could provide 20-100 times the current global power demand:

Wind could meet many times world's total power demand by 2030, Stanford researchers say http://news.stanford.edu/news/2012/september/wind-world-demand-091012.html



- W

 

[webcraft]

Talking of which, just checked a Tesco bag which i would call pretty average, it's 5 grammes not 15.
Why do you have to exaggerate everything?

The 15g figure came frmo a Norwegian study.

In fact Tescos bags are the thinnest, which is why you always have to double-bag heavy loads, bottles etc - and even then I suspect a fault in your weighing procedure.

The thin carriers used in UK supermarkets generally vary from 7.5g to 12.6g

(Source: Life Cycle Assessment of Supermarket Carrier Bags http://www.biodeg.org/files/uploaded/Carrier_Bags_Report_EA.pdf )

However, assuming you are right then obviously I have been most unfair to Lusty, as I am sure if you weight a shirt button I am sure you will find it weighs at least 0.75 kilos.

Are you missing the point here, or am I?

- W

 

[webcraft]

if there were a will to build flexible nuclear plant to the same safety standards as existing and planned base load plants, it could be done.

Yes, and if money were no object . . .

- W

 

[Grumpybear]

Yes, and if money were no object . . .

- W

First let me be clear. I do not doubt that mankind has had a serious impact on climate change. I do, however, doubt whether it will be possible to do much about it without radically reducing both the world's population and it's average living standards, and very quickly. In that context, it seems to me as a chartered mechanical engineer of forty years' experience permissible to be sceptical about the realism of renewable energy as a solution.

Trying to power the UK entirely with wind turbines would probably require both money and space to be no object. And what else would you advocate as a serious renewable component? In fact, money need not be unlimited to design and build a limited number of smaller nuclear plants to provide some of the required peak lopping capacity. Safety is obviously vital, but the UK's regulatory regime is in itself highly bureaucratic and, as with so many aspects of public life (immigration, for example) almost intended to be vulnerable to repeated and sometimes frankly frivolous legal challenge. The very fear of this activity and its associated media propaganda has contributed greatly to the unconscionable delays already inflicted on the replacement of all our ageing generating capacity (whether by nuclear, gas, or any other type) let alone its rapid future expansion to cater for electric road and rail traction as so often advocated without real analysis of the implications.

 

[webcraft]

First let me be clear. I do not doubt that mankind has had a serious impact on climate change. I do, however, doubt whether it will be possible to do much about it without radically reducing both the world's population and it's average living standards, and very quickly. In that context, it seems to me as a chartered mechanical engineer of forty years' experience permissible to be sceptical about the realism of renewable energy as a solution.

Trying to power the UK entirely with wind turbines would probably require both money and space to be no object. And what else would you advocate as a serious renewable component? In fact, money need not be unlimited to design and build a limited number of smaller nuclear plants to provide some of the required peak lopping capacity. Safety is obviously vital, but the UK's regulatory regime is in itself highly bureaucratic and, as with so many aspects of public life (immigration, for example) almost intended to be vulnerable to repeated and sometimes frankly frivolous legal challenge. The very fear of this activity and its associated media propaganda has contributed greatly to the unconscionable delays already inflicted on the replacement of all our ageing generating capacity (whether by nuclear, gas, or any other type) let alone its rapid future expansion to cater for electric road and rail traction as so often advocated without real analysis of the implications.

I have no argument with any of what you have said. However, I think extracting the required amount of electricity from renewables and gas will be cheaper, quicker and more likely than a sudden resurgence of a British nuclear industry. For the last 40 years the insidious spread of political short-termism, privatisation and under-investment has been undermining the future we are now arriving in.

Anyway, thanks for an intelligent contribution I feel motivated to respond to. However, this is not why I started this thread, which was to discuss the appropriateness or otherwise of a particular letter in the RYA members magazine, so I think I will leave it now as no-one is inclined to discuss the actual subject I raised.

- W

 

[Plevier]

And if you want to believe drivel cobbled together by right wing libertarian US thinktanks

- W

Whereas as you are entirely neutral, unbiased and expert!

 

[Plevier]

The 15g figure came frmo a Norwegian study.

In fact Tescos bags are the thinnest, which is why you always have to double-bag heavy loads, bottles etc - and even then I suspect a fault in your weighing procedure.

The thin carriers used in UK supermarkets generally vary from 7.5g to 12.6g

(Source: Life Cycle Assessment of Supermarket Carrier Bags http://www.biodeg.org/files/uploaded/Carrier_Bags_Report_EA.pdf )

However, assuming you are right then obviously I have been most unfair to Lusty, as I am sure if you weight a shirt button I am sure you will find it weighs at least 0.75 kilos.

Are you missing the point here, or am I?

- W

I think you are. Yes the shirt button analogy may have been silly but you always present everything you believe as indisputable.
Maybe Norwegian plastic bags are heavier!
You strike me as a closed mind extremist.
You won't listen to any moderate point of view.

I tend to agree with your point about the letter that started this thread, but do take the beam out of your own eye!

 

[Daydream believer]

I doubt very much if you have been a member of the RYA since before I was born.

- W

I was think something like
Comprehensive school to 17 years
London school of economics ( that is the leftist one i am told) -4. Years
Bumming round doing SFA - 1 year
18 years doing web design as shown on your profile
Add that up to get 40 years old
Add 9 years working in macdonalds or supermarket loading shelves & you get 49 years
I would be an RYA member before you were borne

Don't get the hump --- it is in fun!-- i was getting fed up with the serious stuff & we are entitled to our opinions. No matter how miss guided yours are

 

[webcraft]

I was think something like
Comprehensive school to 17 years
London school of economics ( that is the leftist one i am told) -4. Years
Bumming round doing SFA - 1 year
18 years doing web design as shown on your profile
Add that up to get 40 years old
Add 9 years working in macdonalds or supermarket loading shelves & you get 49 years
I would be an RYA member before you were borne

Don't get the hump --- it is in fun!-- i was getting fed up with the serious stuff & we are entitled to our opinions. No matter how miss guided yours are

School - Inverness Royal Academy to 17.5 years
Worked for National Trust for Scotland at Culloden Battlefield - sacked for being English
Aberdeen University to 22 years
2 years labouring on gas pipelines, oil rigs etc and dossing around - to 24 years
1 year Teacher Training college (Aberdeen) to 25 years
2 more years pipeline labouring, van driving, on the rigs and dossing around - to 27 years
4.5 years teaching - to 31 years
5 years manufacturing designer knitwear - to 36 years
1 year on the dole / selling encyclopedias / ducking and diving / furiously tarting up my CV - to 37 years
8 years oilfield downhole survey engineer worldwide - to 45 years - started Webcraft towards the end of this period in 1996
15+ years web design, supply teaching, running IT courses, RYA courses, skippering charters - to 60 years and counting

So - were you an RYA member before 1952 ?

- W

 

[webcraft]

Whereas as you are entirely neutral, unbiased and expert!

Not expert, but a fair level of general knowledge and long term interest in the environment (which is something you live in as well btw ).

No particular axe to grind so yes, pretty neutral and unbiased when it comes to looking at the evidence. Happy to change my mind when I think the facts merit it, e.g. my fairly recent and difficult conversion to support for nuclear power.

I think you are. Yes the shirt button analogy may have been silly

It wasn't presented as an analogy.

What is a 'moderate' point of view? That anyone with some respect for the environment is a nutter? That is the view that LustyD was expressing.

I don't regard that as in any way moderate, I regard it as barking.

- W