[70521]
Well-Known Member
I cold water swim.
There is a HUGE difference between going to the water for a swim and sitting in the cockpit and being unexpectantly thrown in the oggin.
RYA Safetrx
- Thread starter DanTribe
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There is a HUGE difference between going to the water for a swim and sitting in the cockpit and being unexpectantly thrown in the oggin.
boomerangben
Well-Known Member
I think there are two very separate issues here. Cold water shock and hypothermia. Cold water shock as I understand it is caused by sudden immersion causing a cardio vascular response which puts a huge strain on the heart, combined with a sudden and reflexive in take of breath causing water inhalation. Life jacket and covering your mouth can mitigate. Hypothermia is the progressive shutting down of the body as it tries to maintain core temperature. Most people drown due to hypothermia taking away their ability to move your limbs in a coordinated manner preventing you keeping your airway free of water.
Life jackets of course can help save lives in both instances. Survival times for the latter are variable on a huge number of factors but I’ve been on searches that have gone on well beyond 12 hours since the alarm was raised so clearly the CG expect a chance of recovering the casualty alive well beyond that time.
Survival or immersion suits obviously make a big improvement as well, providing there’s adequate insulation. But the key in any of these situations is minimising the search part or search and rescue. The rescue is very quick but the search can take ages. If you are boating, don’t fall in. If you fall in make sure you can be easily found. Remember once in the water you are smaller than a football, especially without a life jacket and we all know how easy it is to miss a dull coloured pot buoy.
Life jackets of course can help save lives in both instances. Survival times for the latter are variable on a huge number of factors but I’ve been on searches that have gone on well beyond 12 hours since the alarm was raised so clearly the CG expect a chance of recovering the casualty alive well beyond that time.
Survival or immersion suits obviously make a big improvement as well, providing there’s adequate insulation. But the key in any of these situations is minimising the search part or search and rescue. The rescue is very quick but the search can take ages. If you are boating, don’t fall in. If you fall in make sure you can be easily found. Remember once in the water you are smaller than a football, especially without a life jacket and we all know how easy it is to miss a dull coloured pot buoy.
mm42
Well-Known Member
The bodies I recover, and the resulting coroners reports, would suggest you are very wrong.
RunAgroundHard
Well-Known Member
There is a huge difference only between knowledge and no knowledge.
The point being made is that there are methods to reduce the impact of cold water shock. Likely, you would not experience extreme cold water shock reactions if you regularly cold water swim but fell in unexpectedly from your boat. People fall into cold water, unexpectedly, and do not suffer the reactions from cold water shock that kills.
Mark-1gives examples and experiences of people who enter cold water and do not experience significant cold shock reactions. The point I was making is that you can desensitise your body to the consequences of entering cold water, a point which Professor Tipton agrees with; he calls it "habitualization".
As a 13 year old, I waterskied on Loch Lomond starting in April, with the Loch Lomond WaterSki Club. I fell in frequently from the skis only wearing a 3 mm shorty wetsuit and buoyancy aid. At no time did I experience life threatening cold water shock, I windsurfed all year round and dinghy sailed, with many capsizes. My friends and I did have blue lips and violent shaking as hypothermia set in, at times. We laughed at our blue lips!
I think that cold water shock is serious, but like the useless unless worn campaign, it takes on a degree of fatalism that if you fall in or don't wear a lifejackets you will die in most UK water conditions. With a modicum of knowledge, the impact of cold water shock can be significantly reduced where survival and rescue probability is increased. I think that is the point that is being made.
It is worth watching Professor Tipton's YouTube video. Cold Water Shock – the Facts
ShinyShoe
Well-Known Member
I suspect they don't need to ask nowadays as it might be properly integrated into their systems CG66 wasn't. So if they know your MMSI they know your SafeTrx.
BUT SafeTrx may not be current. When I completed it, there may have been 2 lifejackets on board for my normal activities. What happens if I have 4 POB when I'm sinking?
I may have got rid of my life raft last year when it failed a service. But I haven't updated SafeTrx.
Or my shore contact might be the ex-wife who drilled the hole in the boat...
People do crazy stuff. So in remote Waters Yacht Lonely hits DSC Distress. That travels 70 miles in all directions. It's picked up by a Ferry, who call it back because the CG hasn't as it's remote. The Ferry will then relay the message (we assume professionally). But 2 other pleasure boats are in the 70 mile zone and get the DSC. One hears broken voice but no reply from either. They try to relay to CG. Maybe using DSC urgency. CG now appears to have 2 incidents on the go. And for good measure the 3rd guy doesn't know how to cancel the alert and may be pressing all the buttons...
Nothing stops a boat having the same name. Or a similar name. Nothing stops 2 boats being in a distress at the same time with the same name. Imagine the uproar if they miss one!?
Call sign: I'm sure we all agree.
That's a degrees, minutes, second.decimal or degree, minutes.decimal or degree.decimal? Why would you tell someone to stop reading the details... It makes little sense.
Yip. Lonely and Daydreamer and a couple of witnesses then a boat that picks up a surviver and then potentially the "helpful" unnecessary relay...
If CG calls Lonely back and is told they did touch something but all is fine is that because all IS fine, or because they are talking to a different lonely who maybe had a close shave...?
Unless you arent wearing a lifejacket? I've heard calls of people around and taking on water..
"Sir, how many people on board and do you all have life jackets on? Over."
"4 People on board. The children have lifejackets on but the adults don't"
"Sir, do the adults have life jackets they can put on? Over"
"Yes"
"Sir, how much water are you taking on. Over."
"I don't you know."
"Sir, do you have a life raft or dinghy on board, over"
"No"
"Sir, we have help on the way to you. Can you confirm all persons on board are now wearing lifejackets. Over"
"We can put them on if you want us to"
NormanS
Well-Known Member
And all that time that the CG are interrogating the poor guy about whether they have lifejackets, and whether or not they're wearing them, is time that could much more usefully be spent finding the source of the leak, and attempting to stop it.
ShinyShoe
Well-Known Member
This was in the Solent. There was an ILB alongside about 10 minutes later and the boat was accompanied back to harbour.
Without wanting to cast aspersions... The guy didn't sound like he had ever used a screwdriver in his life... ...I've worked with people who seemed surprised that cars used oil (this was before electric cars).
...it's like the Maydays for engine failure in the Solent. ?do you have an anchor? If you don't ask any of the questions how do you know what to send.
Is the questioning delaying corrective action if you were never going to take corrective action. If someone doesn't know how much water you are taking on, then maybe you aren't instantly going to sink. In which case a helo is the wrong asset. If you are stood on the roof of the boat as it goes down with no life jacket, you are now wanting every asset.
I got a puncture a couple of years ago on the motorway. Stopped to change it, to discover my tyre wrench wasn't where it should be (I'd used it a few weeks earlier on a trailer and seemingly not put it back). Embarrassed I called my recovery company. Guy comes out. Changes tyre for me. I head on my way. While he is working I'm apologetic for dragging him out on a hideous cold rainy night for something I should be able to sort. He says - he's just come from someone who had called with their tyre pressure warning light on, on their own driveway. No evidence of a puncture. Just need air. When asked why she didn't take it to a garage to put air in, she said "I asked my husband, he said call the breakdown people that's what we pay them for".
If my boat is taking on water and I'm concerned enough to press the big red button then (a) we aren't talking a cup full (b) my lifejacket is going on as I hit the button (c) I either already looked to see what was leaking or it was so sudden and catastrophic I will be quite pleased that CG knows if they are looking for 4 people in the water with LJs or 4 people in a raft...
NormanS
Well-Known Member
I'm sure the Solent has some characters, but back in the real world.......
If I'm in trouble, the chances are that help will be a long time away. Rather than standing at the radio wasting time, I'll be trying my best to get me out of my mess. I appreciate that the CG have to have boxes to tick, but I'm sure some of them could be ticked afterwards.
If I'm in trouble, the chances are that help will be a long time away. Rather than standing at the radio wasting time, I'll be trying my best to get me out of my mess. I appreciate that the CG have to have boxes to tick, but I'm sure some of them could be ticked afterwards.
ShinyShoe
Well-Known Member
But will you not have already done that before hitting the big red button?
If it's a medical thing etc - you will hit red instantly. I'm not sure if their algorithm then asks about lifejackets for all etc.?
When is afterwards? When you get ashore to safety? Or once you've tried to plug the hole for the 5th time and are no longer answering the VHF?
The consistent questions in the Solent seemed to be:
People on board (if you sink - need to know how many people searching for. Even if not sunk a D class can't take a crew of 12 off a yacht.
Lifejackets
Are you able to anchor if drifting
Do you have breakdown cover once anchored (happy days on the Solent!!)
Description of the boat - always helpful to know if you are looking for a 40ft yacht or 14ft cabin cruiser, but alsk for what you might need to tow etc .
Mark-1
Well-Known Member
Can you explain it? My understanding is cold water shock is a kind of 'medical' shock. Akin to getting your leg chopped off. I really don't see how "mentally preparing yourself" for it helps at all, any more than Sailors in Nelsons Navy could prepare themselves for having their leg chopped off by the Surgeon.
Mark-1
Well-Known Member
But you don't see how many people go in without dying. I reckon it's a *lot*.
Nor have you really explained how a LJ prevents you getting cold water shock which is where we came in. Are you going to say it holds you head out of the water so you don't inhale breath at the first gasp? If so presumably only a self inflater counts and buoyancy aids don't work at all. In which case everyone need to be clear about that. (I'd seriously question if even the best life jacket really stops your head going under initially but when someone explains I'm sure it will become clear.)
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Mark-1
Well-Known Member
My experiences are similar and in recent years Paddle Boarding has taken off where it seems to be a matter of honour not to wear wetsuits/drysuits even in winter and where sudden and total immersion is far from unheard of. (When a child rams you you go in fast and you're not expecting it.)
I'll be paddling this Christmas with my family and there will be dozens of other people out, I can't believe we're facing a significant risk of death.
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Mark-1
Well-Known Member
Since I've started on the heresy I might as well state at this point that I think the risk hypothermia is typically *understated*.
Lot's of talk of life jackets but thermal protection is almost never mentioned.
IMHO, most people who go into cold water won't die immediately whereas 100pc will perish from hypothermia if they're in long enough.
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Stemar
Well-Known Member
I'm open to correction on this, but AIUI, far more people die of hypothermia in the water than actually drown - or they drown because hypothermia means they can't keep on swimming. A life jacket will help you survive the initial cold shock, but this time of year you've got about an hour to get out of the water before you can't, and that's assuming you're at least averagely fit. Plenty of us on here aren't. If we survive the cold shock - heart attacks are not unheard of - we're going to run out of steam pretty quickly.
As for Maydays, I reckon that's what the red button is for. Once that goes off, the CG's got my position and they know what they're looking for. If I've got time to chat, great, but I think I'm far more likely to be busy trying not to sink or fry. I won't be sending a mayday because of engine failure. I would see that as a Pan if I'm out of control in a shipping lane, or there's some other special circumstance, otherwise, it's an Oh bugger, sail to somewhere near a port and get on the phone to organise a tow. No wind? That's why I carry an anchor. Of course, anything could become a mayday if things escalate. In the Solent, if I'm not able to manoeuvre, I'd probably inform the CG and let them decide what, if anything, they need to do to keep me and other vessels around me safe.
Juan Twothree
Well-Known Member
Mark-1
Well-Known Member
The fact they're saying "take a minute" isn't screaming a high likelihood of instant death to me and there's nothing in that link that I'd remotely disagree with.
Juan Twothree
Well-Known Member
It's can be instant death, depending on your health.
Assuming you don't have a heart attack or stroke in those first few seconds, then the next minute can best be used to try to avoid getting water into your lungs.
I've edited the post now to include a link to Mike Tipton's video.
Mark-1
Well-Known Member
A five mile run can be instant death, depending on your health. The fact is the majority of people who go into cold water don't die instantly. The RNLI link even says: "The initial effects of cold water pass in less than a minute".
Juan Twothree
Well-Known Member
Juan Twothree
Well-Known Member
I haven't really got the time or the patience to argue at the moment, and even if I did I suspect it would be pointless.
All I can suggest is that you watch Professor Tipton's video, and then make your mind up.
I've had the privilege of meeting both him and Frank Golden, many years ago, and they seemed to know what they were talking about.
All I can suggest is that you watch Professor Tipton's video, and then make your mind up.
I've had the privilege of meeting both him and Frank Golden, many years ago, and they seemed to know what they were talking about.
