RYA Safetrx

[wonkywinch]

Correct, that was me and I stand by it when referring to the suggestion that life jackets should be worn at all times on all boats , day or night, calm or storm.

My comment related to UK waters (sorry I didn't make that clear). I don't tend to wear them in the Med or the Caribbean unless the wind is up and I have to go out of the cockpit. I follow the advice of the RYA who "recommend that you wear a lifejacket or buoyancy aid unless you are sure you don't need to."

Self and partner have done a shedload of RYA courses and are friends with a few YMI/YME types. I don't know any who don't wear lifejackets in the UK. It may be too cautious for you and I'm certainly not a novice (YM qual) nor nervous sailor but I never want to ever be stood at an inquest answering probing questions about my attitude to safety with half a dozen unused lifejackets hanging in the wardrobe when a mate has gone overboard and drowned (as happened to a colleague on the Deauville run this year).

Each to his own.

 

[Mark-1]

Or STENDEC for morse fans.

Many years ago I watched a documentary about this crash and they interviewed an aircraft radio officer (?) from the era. He didn't find STENDEC remotely mysterious, it was a very typical mishearing (FWOABW) of a routine transmission the aircraft would have been making.

 

[[70521]]

The person in charge of the vessel can decide how the communication is delivered dependent on the circumstances. I would be happy to change the format and defer answers to the more detailed questions if I thought that was necessary. For example DSC plus the following spoken slowly and clearly:

“ Mayday, Mayday, Mayday, this is Saucy Sue, Saucy Sue, Saucy Sue. Mayday, Maday, Mayday. We are on fire, we are on fire. We require immediate assistance, immediate assistance. We are 1 mile south(or distance and bearing) of Dartmouth Castle, Devon, 1 mile south of Dartmouth Castle, Devon. We are a 40 foot sailing boat, 40 foot sailing boat. Hull and sails are white, white. Two people on board, two people. Please confirm receipt of message. Please confirm receipt of message.”

Repeat if no confirmation or clarify essentials if needed.

That would be much more useful than lat and long, call sign etc to communicate to local vessels who might be in a position to help quickly. It would also give the Coast Guard the essential information they need to start rescue activities.

I understand that a one size fits all procedure needs to exist and be taught but there is nothing to stop us making a decision to deviate from that if we judge it necessary.

All assuming that the 'red mist' has not descended. Last summer I was on the bridge of RFA Argus in Falmouth during Storm Antoni (the wind speed indicator read F10) when a Mayday was heard. The panic in the skippers voice was clear. If you have time to repeat everything while you are on fire you are a braver skipper than me. In a small boat you have very little time should a fire take hold. Once you have emptied one or two extinguishers then it is time to leave.

I spent an enlightening afternoon visiting a French Semaphore Station and mentioned that I spoke very little French and would they understand a mayday. Of course sir was their answer - it has a structure. Help, identity, location and assistance required - if we have a problem upstanding what you said we call Falmouth and play them the tape of the call. Very re-assuring.

 

[RupertW]

My comment related to UK waters (sorry I didn't make that clear). I don't tend to wear them in the Med or the Caribbean unless the wind is up and I have to go out of the cockpit. I follow the advice of the RYA who "recommend that you wear a lifejacket or buoyancy aid unless you are sure you don't need to."

Self and partner have done a shedload of RYA courses and are friends with a few YMI/YME types. I don't know any who don't wear lifejackets in the UK. It may be too cautious for you and I'm certainly not a novice (YM qual) nor nervous sailor but I never want to ever be stood at an inquest answering probing questions about my attitude to safety with half a dozen unused lifejackets hanging in the wardrobe when a mate has gone overboard and drowned (as happened to a colleague on the Deauville run this year).

Each to his own.

I don’t understand why UK waters are so different on a calm or sunny day or why you worry about coroners. But you assess risk in your own way.

 

[wonkywinch]

I don’t understand why UK waters are so different on a calm or sunny day or why you worry about coroners. But you assess risk in your own way.

post deleted - doesn't feel right having to justify my attitude to safety

 

[Boathook]

My comment related to UK waters (sorry I didn't make that clear). I don't tend to wear them in the Med or the Caribbean unless the wind is up and I have to go out of the cockpit. I follow the advice of the RYA who "recommend that you wear a lifejacket or buoyancy aid unless you are sure you don't need to."

Self and partner have done a shedload of RYA courses and are friends with a few YMI/YME types. I don't know any who don't wear lifejackets in the UK. It may be too cautious for you and I'm certainly not a novice (YM qual) nor nervous sailor but I never want to ever be stood at an inquest answering probing questions about my attitude to safety with half a dozen unused lifejackets hanging in the wardrobe when a mate has gone overboard and drowned (as happened to a colleague on the Deauville run this year).

Each to his own.

The majority of boaters I know, don't wear lifejackets unless at night or they feel conditions require them. I tend to wear one more when single handed after I have considered the risks.
It does seem that people new to boating are more likely to wear lifejackets. Is that down to training or a confidence issue moving around a boat, etc.

 

[dunedin]

The fishing boat "Aquilla" capsized while dragging for scallops, near Bo Fascadale, on the north side of Ardnamurchan. I think it was in 2009.
A member of the public, onshore, saw it happen, and ran to a house to report it on the phone. He gave a clear description of the location. Unfortunately, his description included the name of a closeby hamlet called Kilmory. There are dozens of Kilmorys.
An opsroom CG, instead of listening to the full and coherent distress call, picked up the word Kilmory, immediately thought of the wrong Kilmory, and acted on it.
Three men died. The facts all eventually came out in the MAIB report.

Sadly we passed the upside down boat when passing Bo Fascadale shortly after the accident - very sad. Always think of them when passing that way (4 times this year).

 

[NormanS]

Sadly we passed the upside down boat when passing Bo Fascadale shortly after the accident - very sad. Always think of them when passing that way (4 times this year).

The one survivor from the Aquila was picked up by a passing single-handed yacht.
I would recommend having a look at the MAIB report, (Google) particularly pages 8,9,& 10. The CG response was absolutely shambolic.
Like you, I pass Bo Fascadale several times every year, and that very sad case always comes back to me.

 

[mm42]

I don’t understand why UK waters are so different on a calm or sunny day or why you worry about coroners. But you assess risk in your own way.

As someone who has to, far too frequently, recover bodies of those who have died through the effects of cold water shock, enormously less likely in the Med or Caribbean with their much warmer water temperatures, it is fairly obvious.

 

[mm42]

The person in charge of the vessel can decide how the communication is delivered dependent on the circumstances. I would be happy to change the format and defer answers to the more detailed questions if I thought that was necessary. For example DSC plus the following spoken slowly and clearly:

“ Mayday, Mayday, Mayday, this is Saucy Sue, Saucy Sue, Saucy Sue. Mayday, Maday, Mayday. We are on fire, we are on fire. We require immediate assistance, immediate assistance. We are 1 mile south(or distance and bearing) of Dartmouth Castle, Devon, 1 mile south of Dartmouth Castle, Devon. We are a 40 foot sailing boat, 40 foot sailing boat. Hull and sails are white, white. Two people on board, two people. Please confirm receipt of message. Please confirm receipt of message.”

Repeat if no confirmation or clarify essentials if needed.

That would be much more useful than lat and long, call sign etc to communicate to local vessels who might be in a position to help quickly. It would also give the Coast Guard the essential information they need to start rescue activities.

I understand that a one size fits all procedure needs to exist and be taught but there is nothing to stop us making a decision to deviate from that if we judge it necessary.

There is a set format for a distress voice call (Mayday), which is universally accepted. Not really sure why you'd go freeform and make up your own format?

MIPDANIO, learn it, use it, you'll not go far wrong, no need for all this please confirm receipt nonsense.

You should have learnt the format when you got your radio certificate, whether it be a VHF Short Range certificate of better. I did my GMDSS General Operators Certificate for my Master 200GT and we spent an awful lot of the 8 days doing learning the format off by heart.

If you're in an absolute hurry fire off an undesignated DSC Distress, or, if you've a little more time, a designated DSC distress, showing the nature of the emergency. It'll save you time formatting your own version of a distress voice call.

 

[dunedin]

The majority of boaters I know, don't wear lifejackets unless at night or they feel conditions require them. I tend to wear one more when single handed after I have considered the risks.
It does seem that people new to boating are more likely to wear lifejackets. Is that down to training or a confidence issue moving around a boat, etc.

Your experience seems different from mine. I grew up racing dinghies, so wearing lifejackets was the norm from day 1 and continues today - albeit the modern yacht lifejackets are massively better and more comfortable to wear.
Perhaps it is not “new to boating” people who tend to wear lifejackets- it is old fogies who are reluctant to wear them? Perhaps the same old fogies who objected to compulsory seat belts in cars, whereas those who grew up with them feel very uncomfortable in a vehicle without seat belts.
(PS. I agree very different in mild weather in warm waters like the Med. My simple guideline is if you have already jumped off the stern for a swim, and weather not changed, no need for a lifejacket, If jumping off the back for a swim seems un inviting, then let that guide you.)

 

[Mark-1]

As someone who has to, far too frequently, recover bodies of those who have died through the effects of cold water shock, enormously less likely in the Med or Caribbean with their much warmer water temperatures, it is fairly obvious.

If death from coldwater shock is the concern a dry or wet suit seems a better protection.

 

[mm42]

If death from coldwater shock is the concern a dry or wet suit seems a better protection.

In my work on fast (50 knot) RHIBs we wear drysuits year round.

 

[Mark-1]

I grew up racing dinghies, so wearing lifejackets was the norm from day 1 and continues today - albeit the modern yacht lifejackets are massively better and more comfortable to wear.

I also grew up racing dinghies and my kids sail dinghies today and buoyancy aids are worn exclusively for dinghy sailing IME. Indeed, life jackets are banned by club rules for crews of rescue boats for the obvious reasons.

And if you're going to say you used the term lifejacket as a synonym for Buoyancy aids then what feature of life jackets is it that is essential in UK waters? The fact they hold your head (slightly) out of the water or just the the general vague floatyness? And if the head out of the water when you're unconscious is the feature that is critical do LJs have to be self inflating to count?

 

[Mark-1]

In my work on fast (50 knot) RHIBs we wear drysuits year round.

So if you're wearing the life jacket to protect you from cold water shock what is the dry suit doing?

 

[boomerangben]

The majority of boaters I know, don't wear lifejackets unless at night or they feel conditions require them. I tend to wear one more when single handed after I have considered the risks.
It does seem that people new to boating are more likely to wear lifejackets. Is that down to training or a confidence issue moving around a boat, etc.

Maybe because modern life jackets are so much better than the ones available to our fathers and grandfathers so those who have been sailing a long time never got into the habit of it, maybe there’s a different attitude to risk, perhaps they cut their teeth on much smaller boats heeled at bigger angles to their modern craft. Who knows. But I’ve been to too many searches for drownings with nothing found and I know that influences my view on life jackets but what I do question is why not wear a life jacket? If you have got them, they are free, not uncomfortable and no hindrance. But each to their own.

 

[RunAgroundHard]

I am not so sure it is an age thing, maybe a better understanding of risk is the real reason that people wear lifejackets, conversely those less aware of the risk might not wear one. Then there is complacency but that is really risk normalisation i.e. the threat is not perceived to be real. Anecdotally, sailors in the UK very rarely drown through cold water shock or from not wearing a lifejacket because there are few reports of this happening.

I grew up sailing offshore where lifejackets were only worn in the dinghy, at night, in 'bad' weather, in fog. It was not until much later, late 90's that we started wearing lifejackets regularly. I don't always wear one, usually when the weather is fine, light winds and in cockpit. In principle though, I will always be wearing by lifejacket for the safety harness (or a safety harness only), especially as I am usually the only trained and competent person on the boat.

But that was not always the case, hence I learned to use a lifejacket. I started offshore sailing around 1978 and dinghies with buoyancy aids years before then.

 

[Mark-1]

I've no idea how significant it is but there was historically a feeling that if you went into UK temperature water you wouldn't be found in time anyway so why bother. I certainly heard a lot of people say that back in the day, probably said it myself.

The advent of PLBs mean there's a very big chance you'll be found before the cold gets you so that's a shift in the risk calculation of LJs.

EDIT: Thinking about it's not just PLBs. There are waterproof mobile phones, mobile phones in aquapacs and I'm sure handheld VHFs are more likely to be on your person. There's actually a pretty good chance these days someone falling off a boat will be able to report their location and situation.

 

[RunAgroundHard]

I've no idea how significant it is but there was historically a feeling that if you went into UK temperature water you wouldn't be found in time anyway so why bother. I certainly heard a lot of people say that back in the day, probably said it myself.

The advent of PLBs mean there's a very big chance you'll be found before the cold gets you so that's a shift in the risk calculation of LJs.

You can prepare your body not to be affected by cold shock, through cold showers and, or baths, cold water swimming and cold plunge pools at sauna's for example. The body builds a resilience to cold water shock, which can help prolong survival times. Also I think at certain times of the year, in UK waters survival time is low, and cold water shock can be fatal very quickly.

A good explanation here and how to desensitise against cold water shock: -

Cold water immersion therapy: do the benefits outweigh the risks?.

A large part of the risk can be mitigated by a progressive approach to cold water immersion, according to Prof Greg Whyte, of Liverpool John Moores University, who has produced a two-week Cold Water Exposure plan, Sponge to Plunge, with the Royal Life Saving Society (RLSS).

The body habituates to the cold shock response, with as few as five two-minute immersions reducing the physiological response by as much as 50% and the habituation appears to last for several months. The uninitiated are advised to start with face immersion or a cold shower before trying full immersion or an outdoor swim.

Sponge to Plunge - Plymouth Sound National Marine Park

 

[Mark-1]

You can prepare your body not to be affected by cold shock, through cold showers and, or baths, cold water swimming and cold plunge pools at sauna's for example. The body builds a resilience to cold water shock, which can help prolong survival times. Also I think at certain times of the year, in UK waters survival time is low, and cold water shock can be fatal very quickly.

A good explanation here and how to desensitise against cold water shock: -

Cold water immersion therapy: do the benefits outweigh the risks?.



Sponge to Plunge - Plymouth Sound National Marine Park

This is heresy I know but: Cold water swimming Is a very common hobby these days. My wife swims in the sea all year round with a group of other women from teens up to 70yos and they do no preparation - you turn up and jump in. I've dived head first off boats in early spring without ill effect and I'm certainly not in any way acclimatized. I saw a rather elderly lady fall off a tender two weeks ago and she came up laughing. My son fell off a kayak in early spring at the age of 3. Dinghy sailing, paddle boarding, kayaking all continue all year round.

Seems to me the vast majority of people who fall into cold water don't die, I think cold water shock is greatly exaggerated.