RYA PY List 2012

Fire99

Fire99

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Hi all,

I've been taking a nose at the current PY list from the RYA. How accurate is this fabled list?

Reason I ask is that one of the boats I've been taking a nose at (Prospect 900) is a Van Der Stadt design and some say a worthy alternative to the Westerly GK29 but has a PY figure of over 1300, which is not exactly 'flighty'

I can't say I know much about this PY malarkey but if anyone can fill me in on it, I'd be interested.

cheers,


Nik
 
PY is a load of old rollox really. It relies on data being returned from clubs and is effectively a comparison of race results. Only Primary Numbers and to some extent Secondary Numbers are reliable, the so called "registered number" is quite often a guess by a keen builder. If a class ahs a lot of hotshots in it, then the PY will often be uncompetitive for club sailors, whilst the class that only ever had three built, and the builder didn't really know could wipe the floor.

In my racing days, having been a member and on committes etc of a number of clubs, I never knew one that completed the returns...
Basically the PY is only to do with a combination of helm and boat and is not necessarily indicative of boat...
 
IRC is a better measure. The ideal is if a few existing owners will tell you their IRC handicap. Without that you can scan results of the web which usually show the TCF, but that is a bit hit & miss.
 
Fire99 said:
Hi all,

I've been taking a nose at the current PY list from the RYA. How accurate is this fabled list?

Reason I ask is that one of the boats I've been taking a nose at (Prospect 900) is a Van Der Stadt design and some say a worthy alternative to the Westerly GK29 but has a PY figure of over 1300, which is not exactly 'flighty'

I can't say I know much about this PY malarkey but if anyone can fill me in on it, I'd be interested.

cheers,


Nik
Click to expand...


the accuracy depends upon how many results are used to calculate it.

You should find some explanations of the scheme on the RYA website.


The list does say very low confidence in the 1300 figure and that its based only on one boat at one club in only 2 races .
 
Last edited:
dt4134 said:
IRC is a better measure. The ideal is if a few existing owners will tell you their IRC handicap. Without that you can scan results of the web which usually show the TCF, but that is a bit hit & miss.
Click to expand...

If clubs etc use the PY system properly as it is intended to be used then it is infact a very good system which is inexpensive to operate. If you look at how it is used by the Forth Yacht Clubs and Port Edgar Yacht Club in particular you will see just how good the PY system can be if used properly. One of the intersting as pects is that it can be used to include a crew skill factor as will as the boat handicap which can give very close racing.
 
Crumbs.. I can't say i'm hugely the wiser other than understanding that a PY figure based on a single boat isn't too accurate.
 
maxi77 said:
If clubs etc use the PY system properly as it is intended to be used then it is infact a very good system which is inexpensive to operate. If you look at how it is used by the Forth Yacht Clubs and Port Edgar Yacht Club in particular you will see just how good the PY system can be if used properly. One of the intersting as pects is that it can be used to include a crew skill factor as will as the boat handicap which can give very close racing.
Click to expand...

In the context of the OP which was about how the boat itself performs, how well PY is operated or not it is irrelevent.

Having done a bit of racing under the similarish ECHO system I have to say I have no repsect at all for performance based handicap systems.

IRC ain't perfect but at least if you get a good result you've usually earned it.

Still if PY works locally for you and those you compete against, all the best.
 
Fire99 said:
Hi all,

I've been taking a nose at the current PY list from the RYA. How accurate is this fabled list?

Reason I ask is that one of the boats I've been taking a nose at (Prospect 900) is a Van Der Stadt design and some say a worthy alternative to the Westerly GK29 but has a PY figure of over 1300, which is not exactly 'flighty'

I can't say I know much about this PY malarkey but if anyone can fill me in on it, I'd be interested.

cheers,


Nik
Click to expand...

Well they do tell you their confidence in the number is very low and it is from 1 boat in 1 club and 2 races. Byron suggests something more like 1041 which may be more like it and is very similar to numbers suggested for a GK29.
 
Fire99 said:
Crumbs.. I can't say i'm hugely the wiser other than understanding that a PY figure based on a single boat isn't too accurate.
Click to expand...

If you compare the IRC figure to other types of boat that you might be interested in you'll get a good idea of relative performance. The lower number is slower in IRC.
 
Yeah thanks guys. I'm slowly tuning into these various systems. I know it's not an exact science. Doubtlessly a boat of 30+ years old will have many factors affecting its performance but as a general guide it's handy to know if a boat (in good condition) will lean towards performance or bath tub :)
 
Fire99 said:
Yeah thanks guys. I'm slowly tuning into these various systems. I know it's not an exact science. Doubtlessly a boat of 30+ years old will have many factors affecting its performance but as a general guide it's handy to know if a boat (in good condition) will lean towards performance or bath tub :)
Click to expand...

You can always get a 20% performance improvement by changing the prat on the stick...

:D
 
Fire99 said:
Hi all,

I've been taking a nose at the current PY list from the RYA. How accurate is this fabled list?

Reason I ask is that one of the boats I've been taking a nose at (Prospect 900) is a Van Der Stadt design and some say a worthy alternative to the Westerly GK29 but has a PY figure of over 1300, which is not exactly 'flighty'

I can't say I know much about this PY malarkey but if anyone can fill me in on it, I'd be interested.

cheers,


Nik
Click to expand...
The Prospect 900 should be far faster than a PY of 1300+ - probably it should not be that different to a GK29 handicap. You can get this effect of silly PYs if the only one or two raced are sailed in the occasional club race, with a dirty bottom and a not very good helm.

If your club accepts this PY you should have a string of 1sts till they cotton on and give you an adjusted handicap.
 
The actual Portsmouth Yardstick is / was a slide rule; the original is on the wall at Langstone Sailing Club where member Sinbad Zillwood Milledge ( yes, really ! ) invented it.

I've done a lot of handicap racing using the PY in dinghies and cruisers; I found the ratings for popular dinghies worked well and fairly, but it's very hit and miss for cruisers which rarely race and even more rarely forward results, the Prospect 900 being a good example.

As the GK 24 & 29 raced a fair bit, I'd expect their PY is much more realistic.

I knew someone with a Prospect; I have to say as a sailors' boat and for build quality I'd go for the GK29 every time.
 
I'd think the handicap rather favours the Prospect there, but as I said this reflects lack of data.

I'm more intrigued by the PY of the Folkboat, at 1125 - 1084 that seems rather generous, of course these boats vary enormously but I think the serious ones do better than that !
 
Seajet said:
The actual Portsmouth Yardstick is / was a slide rule; the original is on the wall at Langstone Sailing Club where member Sinbad Zillwood Milledge ( yes, really ! ) invented it.

I've done a lot of handicap racing using the PY in dinghies and cruisers; I found the ratings for popular dinghies worked well and fairly, but it's very hit and miss for cruisers which rarely race and even more rarely forward results, the Prospect 900 being a good example.

As the GK 24 & 29 raced a fair bit, I'd expect their PY is much more realistic.

I knew someone with a Prospect; I have to say as a sailors' boat and for build quality I'd go for the GK29 every time.
Click to expand...

If more clubs bothered to submit returns for the races they run then the figures would be better. The failure of the PY system in most clubs is the clubs failure not the system which can only work with the data they are given.
 
maxi77 said:
If more clubs bothered to submit returns for the races they run then the figures would be better. The failure of the PY system in most clubs is the clubs failure not the system which can only work with the data they are given.
Click to expand...

maxi77,

sadly there is another side to this...

My club has a race for cruisers once a year.

My crew and I were used to handicap dinghy racing in Winter Series like the Chichester Snowflake.

We absolutely KNEW we had won 3 times, but it was only acknowledged once when we were so far ahead the rest were out of sight.

Usually the trophy goes to whoever is the golden boy of the moment no matter their sailing ability; I once asked a committee member at Spring-time before we launched " who won the trophy this season then ?! "

As you may imagine I gave up bothering with this 'race'.

I doubt the tame handicapper could provide much data of benefit to the PY system either ! :rolleyes:
 
Seajet said:
maxi77,

sadly there is another side to this...

My club has a race for cruisers once a year.

My crew and I were used to handicap dinghy racing in Winter Series like the Chichester Snowflake.

We absolutely KNEW we had won 3 times, but it was only acknowledged once when we were so far ahead the rest were out of sight.

Usually the trophy goes to whoever is the golden boy of the moment no matter their sailing ability; I once asked a committee member at Spring-time before we launched " who won the trophy this season then ?! "

As you may imagine I gave up bothering with this 'race'.

I doubt the tame handicapper could provide much data of benefit to the PY system either ! :rolleyes:
Click to expand...

That is exactly the problem, obscure handicapping in smoky rooms behind closed doors with no visability, as a result the race is not very satisfactory for most paricipants. That is not the fault of the PY system. I admit it is difficult for a smallish club where there is little racing, and area club associations can help with a bigger pool for handicaapping and being able to give proper handicaps in clubs where the expertise does not reside.
 
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