RYA Night Hours

[RunAgroundHard]

Log books do not need to be signed. An applicant to be examined fills out a form declaring stuff. The RYA only recommend their log book because it contains the scheme syllabus, requirements and sections for all the bits to be recorded.

 

[zoidberg]

I seem to recall the RYA's original Training Manager and progenitor of their 'National Training Scheme', Cdr Bill Anderson, stating at an Instructors' Conference somewhere that - at that time - candidates for the Yachtmaster Practical examination were presenting with in excess of 10,000 hours of seatime.
That Training Scheme was constructed from the core elements of schemes run by the RAF and the Army. The Royal Navy, of course, had a different slant on things - but they made sure 'their man' was chosen to run it..... while the Army got on with the general administration, in the shape of The Two Brigadiers.

He had a reputation for not suffering fools gladly. Akshully, he didn't suffer fools at all! And several of his hugely-experienced crop of Examiners were from the same mould.

He mused that some very highly experienced sorts were simply not offering themselves for test, as they knew 'Commander A' well and wouldn't risk the ignominy of a 'Fail'.

 

[Skylark]

I never felt the need to pursue or obtain a YM qualification nor did I feel the need to maintain a personal log, a ships passage log was a very different thing which I kept for the duration of the passage and then more often than not discarded either at the end or when I found the paper log in the chart table some time afterwards, the pencil marks on the accompanying chart would be expunged when the chart was next required. So after many thousands of miles and several hundred night hours many of which were on my own and most as skipper I suppose I wouldn't be eligible to apply to take a YM examination until I either constructed a log ( do they need to be signed off by someone? and if so what about all those people that either sail single handed or just two up? I appreciate that part of the YM examination is to demonstrate the safe handling of a vessel and crew management)

Then why ask now

If you're interested, first purchase should be the G158 Logbook, it really is helpful and informative. Examiners like to look through your logbook for no other reason than it being convenient and familiar. Other forms of logbook are perfectly accpetable......the objective is to see that you have interesting and varied trips recorded under a variety of condition. Something at the other end of the scale compared to a hundred trips from Southampton to Cowes in bright sunshine with a max F3.

If you're really interested, probably the cheapest way to progress is with own boat, simply book an examiner and press gang crew. Another option is to speak nicely to a forumite to beg/steal/borrow their boat for a few days, this option normally comes with crew. There's plenty of kindred spirit crew on here that, most surely, would be happy to lend a hand. I even know where there's a suitable vessel

You know you want to.

 

[Never Grumble]

The reduced requirement is for when a candidate already holds YM Sail and wants to be examine for YM Power, and vice versa.

I want to do this the vice versa way but difficult to find someone to do this for (examine) me. And no I don't want another 7 days on course.

 

[srm]

Log books do not need to be signed.

Perhaps they have changed over the years, but (from memory) way back in the 70's when I started recording my sailing in an RYA logbook, and 80's when a YM Instructor there was a small section for listing each passage that included headings for: number of days, distance logged, maximum wind speed, and skipper's signature.
As number of days includes nights on board, I took night hours to mean time awake and taking part in the sailing.
Most of the passages in my own logbook were signed by myself as skipper, and often the only crew.

 

[john_morris_uk]

I seem to recall the RYA's original Training Manager and progenitor of their 'National Training Scheme', Cdr Bill Anderson, stating at an Instructors' Conference somewhere that - at that time - candidates for the Yachtmaster Practical examination were presenting with in excess of 10,000 hours of seatime.
That Training Scheme was constructed from the core elements of schemes run by the RAF and the Army. The Royal Navy, of course, had a different slant on things - but they made sure 'their man' was chosen to run it..... while the Army got on with the general administration, in the shape of The Two Brigadiers.

He had a reputation for not suffering fools gladly. Akshully, he didn't suffer fools at all! And several of his hugely-experienced crop of Examiners were from the same mould.

He mused that some very highly experienced sorts were simply not offering themselves for test, as they knew 'Commander A' well and wouldn't risk the ignominy of a 'Fail'.

Bill Anderson appointed me as an examiner and I think opinions differ as to the roots of the RYA training schemes. They’ve been developing over many years now and are constantly evaluated and updated despite what some people say.

 

[srm]

I have just rememberd that a few years ago I skippered a charter yacht for two weeks around the north of Scotland. It was charterd by a family group, two of whom had completed the theory part of the German YM course and were using the cruise for practical seatime towards the full qualification. At the end of the two weeks I was presented with a detailed hourly log of the trip on a standard proforma, and asked to sign a certification page listing what skills had been practiced and give my YM certificate number. I also had to initial every page of the hourly log.
Very different to the RYA approach.

 

[Sandy]

Seems quite clear to me. Your cut and paste did not include the “note 3” symbol after Certificate of Competence. The reduced requirement is for when a candidate already holds YM Sail and wants to be examine for YM Power, and vice versa.

As I said in a past life I was involved with writing standards. Given the confusion about recording night hours sailed or actually 'on watch'; I felt the requirement was not made clear in the documentation. The 'note 3' only confused the situation further.

I could interpreted an 'overnight passage' as, staggering out of the Dolphin on Plymouth Barbican, falling into a bunk on a boat that may or may not been the one I should be on somewhere in Sutton Harbour. While the rest of the crew got the boat out to sea where I spend the passage with my head in a bucket wishing I was dead. Twenty hours later arriving in Roscoff only to stagger dash to the nearest cafe for a pastis and coffee, as a hair of the dog, before presenting myself to the douane to get my passport stamped.

Alternatively, it could be a departure from Sutton Harbour at 2300 with a three hour on six hours off watch routine with four onboard.

Coming back to @Alanprib's original question 'what is the RYA looking for in an overnight passage', a semi-conscious head in a bucket one or three hours as lone watch keeper?

 

[Praxinoscope]

Where is the confusion? (extract from G15/78 ’Column 5. Night hours……This is hours on watch between sunset and sunrise’)
falling into ones bunk after a night in the Dolphin or other hostlery whilst the crew undertake the passage obviously does not fit the requirement.

 

[Skylark]

As I said in a past life I was involved with writing standards. Given the confusion about recording night hours sailed or actually 'on watch'; I felt the requirement was not made clear in the documentation. The 'note 3' only confused the situation further.

I could interpreted an 'overnight passage' as, staggering out of the Dolphin on Plymouth Barbican, falling into a bunk on a boat that may or may not been the one I should be on somewhere in Sutton Harbour. While the rest of the crew got the boat out to sea where I spend the passage with my head in a bucket wishing I was dead. Twenty hours later arriving in Roscoff only to stagger dash to the nearest cafe for a pastis and coffee, as a hair of the dog, before presenting myself to the douane to get my passport stamped.

Alternatively, it could be a departure from Sutton Harbour at 2300 with a three hour on six hours off watch routine with four onboard.

Coming back to @Alanprib's original question 'what is the RYA looking for in an overnight passage', a semi-conscious head in a bucket one or three hours as lone watch keeper?

Night hours and an overnight passage are two different things. The definition of night hours is clearly shown in the G158 logbook.

Prerequisite for YM Offshore Cert of Comp is the 5 passages over 60 mile requirement. Two must be overnight and two with the candidate as skipper. These are minimum sea time requirements.

The poor examiner has to judge candidate competence and I’d suggest that a night sail assessment will be made. Hours in a cockpit sailing offshore may not prepare you for night time pilotage, entering and leaving an unfamiliar port etc, etc which, surely, common sense suggests that’s what’s required of a competence yachtsperson.

I’ve done Offshore, CI and YMI and each of these practical examinations required the candidate to demonstrate a competence in night time navigation and pilotage.

 

[zoidberg]

Bill Anderson appointed me as an examiner and I think opinions differ as to the roots of the RYA training schemes. They’ve been developing over many years now and are constantly evaluated and updated despite what some people say.

That'll be the ex-RN Wardroom Mafia, I s'pose!

As for the rest, one is reminded of Miss Mandy Rice-Davis' famous quip in the High Court "Well, he would say that, wouldn't he?"
And for the record, one has a high regard for the Crusty Ould Commander.

 

[Fr J Hackett]

Then why ask now

If you're interested, first purchase should be the G158 Logbook, it really is helpful and informative. Examiners like to look through your logbook for no other reason than it being convenient and familiar. Other forms of logbook are perfectly accpetable......the objective is to see that you have interesting and varied trips recorded under a variety of condition. Something at the other end of the scale compared to a hundred trips from Southampton to Cowes in bright sunshine with a max F3.

If you're really interested, probably the cheapest way to progress is with own boat, simply book an examiner and press gang crew. Another option is to speak nicely to a forumite to beg/steal/borrow their boat for a few days, this option normally comes with crew. There's plenty of kindred spirit crew on here that, most surely, would be happy to lend a hand. I even know where there's a suitable vessel

You know you want to.

Not interested in taking the examination having managed without for about 50 plus years one way or another and having sold the last boat and hung up my sea boots 9 years ago. It was just idle wondering how an examiner would cope if presented with someone that just turned up no log book but verbal testimony of several thousands of miles and offshore passages, would he say sod off and come back with an authorised log book or just see how the candidate managed.
I did have an RYA logbook when I enrolled my partner onto a competent crew course to see if she liked sailing before committing to buying a boat some 35 years ago, she asked me to go on the course with her so I enrolled for the CC ticket. There were two girls on the boat one doing dazed kipper and the other CC. It took the instructor a couple of hours on the first day to have a word with me and ask if I wanted to do the DS which I did. On the last Saturday I had been offered a berth on a Sigma 41 for a race so I jumped ship on Friday night and met up with them again on Saturday evening and the Instructor graciously stamped my log book after I had filled it in. So somewhere I do have a DS ticket and several lines in a log book to testify to some mucking about in the solent and a blast across to Alderney with two night passages. But never felt the need to go further altho I tell a lie as I did the YM theory at night school about the same time because I knew the guy running it and it was cheap and there were a couple of weekend charters in it.

 

[RunAgroundHard]

Perhaps they have changed over the years, but (from memory) way back in the 70's when I started recording my sailing in an RYA logbook, and 80's when a YM Instructor there was a small section for listing each passage that included headings for: number of days, distance logged, maximum wind speed, and skipper's signature.
As number of days includes nights on board, I took night hours to mean time awake and taking part in the sailing.
Most of the passages in my own logbook were signed by myself as skipper, and often the only crew.

The RYA logbook still has a space for the skipper to sign. As I said, it still has spaces to record the stuff. The RYA log book has remained similar over the years but changed to reflect revisions to syllabus and new ways of formatting g information, such as the cruising scheme.

I find it weird that people who are interested in being examined don’t consult with the RYA and review requirements directly from them. It’s clear from many threads that folks don’t go to the source. The RYA are helpful.

 

[john_morris_uk]

Not interested in taking the examination having managed without for about 50 plus years one way or another and having sold the last boat and hung up my sea boots 9 years ago. It was just idle wondering how an examiner would cope if presented with someone that just turned up no log book but verbal testimony of several thousands of miles and offshore passages, would he say sod off and come back with an authorised log book or just see how the candidate managed.
I did have an RYA logbook when I enrolled my partner onto a competent crew course to see if she liked sailing before committing to buying a boat some 35 years ago, she asked me to go on the course with her so I enrolled for the CC ticket. There were two girls on the boat one doing dazed kipper and the other CC. It took the instructor a couple of hours on the first day to have a word with me and ask if I wanted to do the DS which I did. On the last Saturday I had been offered a berth on a Sigma 41 for a race so I jumped ship on Friday night and met up with them again on Saturday evening and the Instructor graciously stamped my log book after I had filled it in. So somewhere I do have a DS ticket and several lines in a log book to testify to some mucking about in the solent and a blast across to Alderney with two night passages. But never felt the need to go further altho I tell a lie as I did the YM theory at night school about the same time because I knew the guy running it and it was cheap and there were a couple of weekend charters in it.

There’s nothing to say you need to bring a log book to the exam. You fill in some details of your experience on your application form and one of the first things that happens is the examiner has a chat about your experience. Speaking for myself, it’s very rare that I’ve had a candidate who’s not sailed in or out of some area I’m familiar with. You can soon work out if they’re being economical with the truth of their sailing or motorboat exploits.

 

[Sandy]

Where is the confusion? (extract from G15/78 ’Column 5. Night hours……This is hours on watch between sunset and sunrise’)
falling into ones bunk after a night in the Dolphin or other hostler whilst the crew undertake the passage obviously does not fit the requirement.

Then why are the RYA not stating this on their website? (see my post above with link)

The RYA need to be unambiguous about what their requirements are. I know I am splitting hairs, but they do need to be clear as it avoids posts like the OPs one.

p.s. I have way over the minimum hours both on ocean passages and pilotage at night. Ferry gliding at 45° into Lowestoft with a 2 knot tide across the entrance was particularly memorable. ?

 

[srm]

and one of the first things that happens is the examiner has a chat about your experience.

I still remember part of my direct entry YM exam. The chat about sailing experience got me explaining how I had got through the outer islands off Alesund in limited visibility using a running fix with RDF bearings on the one beacon at 6 minute intervals then crossing the approx track with a depth contour when the echosounder lost the bottom. Examiner said, "you can't do that, its not accurate enough", "so what else could I have done?" no response.
Later I was asked about rigging a tow, then the tow started to yaw widely, what would I do. I gave a reply that the examiner's expression suggested he was not too sure about, "well it worked well when I did it" which led to questions about that situation.

 

[jamie N]

I've instructed and 'assessed' dozens of ROV pilots over the years, and it normally took less than 5 minutes to suss out the truth regarding experience.

 

[zoidberg]

Ferry gliding at 45° into Lowestoft with a 2 knot tide across the entrance was particularly memorable. ?

I first learned about 'ferry gliding' on the Auld Govan Footferry, which I used to get to and from school. I also learned the Lighterman's Hitch, although it would be decades before I learned it had a name.

 

[Birdseye]

What qualifies for logging night hours towards the RYA Yachtmaster pre-qualification.

Is it actual hours of darkness (sunset to sun rise) or some other period of time.

Basic examples:
July = Sunset 21:00 Sun Rise 05:00 = 8 hours can be logged
December = Sunset 16:00 Sun Rise 08:00 = 16 hours can be logged

Is my assumption correct?

1/ how is anyone able to check what you put down?
2/ the important point is that you are competent after dark, know your lights etc, and thats what the examiner will judge you on.

 

[Sandy]

It was the Ballachulish and Corran ferrys where I first saw it used.

The Ballachulish ferry has long gone. No more dashing up from Glasgow on a Sunday to get the last ferry or that long haul via Kinlochleven back to Fort William as the bridge is always open.