RYA Night Hours

[lustyd]

By the time you'll be going for your YM you should have enough hours to meet the requirements and then some.

Why? Are you suggesting you know something the RYA doesn't? The exam is about competence, not hours logged. I've met some extremely incompetent old timers who have more hours at the helm than I've had hot dinners. I've also met some extremely competent people with very few hours who I'd trust with my life while I got some sleep. Hours has literally nothing to do with competence, and the RYA knows that and sets their guidance accordingly. Commercial endorsement may require more rigorous logging, but those requirements are pretty well understood.

 

[ncounties]

Why? Are you suggesting you know something the RYA doesn't? The exam is about competence, not hours logged. I've met some extremely incompetent old timers who have more hours at the helm than I've had hot dinners. I've also met some extremely competent people with very few hours who I'd trust with my life while I got some sleep. Hours has literally nothing to do with competence, and the RYA knows that and sets their guidance accordingly. Commercial endorsement may require more rigorous logging, but those requirements are pretty well understood.

They use the term "minimum" when referencing the pre-requisites.. By all means folks can turn up with two days as Skipper for a Coastal, or five for Offshore, but they likely finish disappointed.

 

[lustyd]

And yet the zero to hero YM courses remain popular with many successful YM candidates passing despite the limited experience. The reality is that sailing isn't as difficult as people like to think. The important part is having the right attitude to problem solving and an eagerness to learn.

Thankfully the RYA have set things up to separate instructor from examiner so there are fewer people in power with higher expectations than those set out. Other organisations suffer greatly from instructor/examiners expecting more than is required at a given level.

 

[jamie N]

Slight drift from the thread and the qualification aspect perhaps, but what are the penalties from 'society' for a pleasure yacht skipper, soloing and not keeping a watch? Let's assume that no incident has taken place, but that a Coastguard vessel has boarded and woken the solo skipper, West of Shetland.
Would the skipper be subject to a fine, or a penalty, or anything that might stop him doing exactly the same action, when he wants?
All of us on these forums put effort and place pride in conforming to 'Colregs', but does it matter if we don't, in the eyes of the law?
If we're involved in an unsafe act, of course we're liable, but are we liable to a sanction?
Asking for a friend, of course.

 

[capnsensible]

And yet the zero to hero YM courses remain popular with many successful YM candidates passing despite the limited experience. The reality is that sailing isn't as difficult as people like to think. The important part is having the right attitude to problem solving and an eagerness to learn.

Thankfully the RYA have set things up to separate instructor from examiner so there are fewer people in power with higher expectations than those set out. Other organisations suffer greatly from instructor/examiners expecting more than is required at a given level.

Agree with most of that!

The YM fast track course is where I diverge. Everyone enters the exam with the same requirements, so the experience required is the same. There are plusses and minuses though. From what I've seen from prepping candidates for the exam, a lot of the fast trackers are very good. Equal, in many respects to those that may have sailed a few weekends here and there plus the odd week or two over quite a few years to get the same experience. However, there are exceptions to both sides of that. As you so rightly point out, attitude is the key. And it's not difficult!

 

[RunAgroundHard]

Slight drift from the thread and the qualification aspect perhaps, but what are the penalties from 'society' for a pleasure yacht skipper, soloing and not keeping a watch? Let's assume that no incident has taken place, but that a Coastguard vessel has boarded and woken the solo skipper, West of Shetland.
Would the skipper be subject to a fine, or a penalty, or anything that might stop him doing exactly the same action, when he wants?
All of us on these forums put effort and place pride in conforming to 'Colregs', but does it matter if we don't, in the eyes of the law?
If we're involved in an unsafe act, of course we're liable, but if we're not, are we liable to a sanction?
Asking for a friend, of course.

Pleasure craft regulations | regulations | RYA

The IRPCs are enabled through an Act of Parliament as the members of the IMO are obliged to do.

If you have no other method of maintaining a watch such as devices that can alarm if there is a risk e.g. AIS, Radar, Echomax then you could fall foul of the IRPCS. I am sure that the definition of Rule 5 'sight', 'sound' and ' conditions', would all have to be tested to see if a law was being broken e.g. sleeping while crossing a TSS v sleeping in an empty stretch of water, even in the event that there was no incident i.e. the probability of an incident would be important in determining of you broke a law.

I have no legal expertise, so may be wide of the mark here.

 

[lustyd]

The YM fast track course is where I diverge.

I'm not sure you did diverge

 

[Sandy]

I've gone back to the RYA website and have to say it is as clear as mud, but I have written technical standards in a past life.

5 passages over 60 miles long, which must include 2 overnight passages and 2 as skipper, which may be reduced to 3 passages including 1 overnight and 1 as skipper if the candidate already holds an RYA Yachtmaster Offshore Certificate of Competence.

Source RYA Yachtmaster Offshore exam

 

[capnsensible]

I'm not sure you did diverge

Only the limited experience bit.

 

[jamie N]

Pleasure craft regulations | regulations | RYA

The IRPCs are enabled through an Act of Parliament as the members of the IMO are obliged to do.

If you have no other method of maintaining a watch such as devices that can alarm if there is a risk e.g. AIS, Radar, Echomax then you could fall foul of the IRPCS. I am sure that the definition of Rule 5 'sight', 'sound' and ' conditions', would all have to be tested to see if a law was being broken e.g. sleeping while crossing a TSS v sleeping in an empty stretch of water, even in the event that there was no incident i.e. the probability of an incident would be important in determining of you broke a law.

I have no legal expertise, so may be wide of the mark here.

If I'm found guilty of any Colregs offence, would that disallow me from leaving harbour in my own yacht? The point I mean to make is that what action can can be taken to prevent a person from leaving a harbour in an ostensibly seaworthy boat, having previously been 'guilty' of an unsafe act with regards to Colregs; let's say not keeping a watch in any manner? Is there a prohibition against a 'yottie' sailing once they've been found negligent?

 

[Uricanejack]

I did, go and have quick peek at the requirements. Noticed something slightly odd.
If you do the coastal YM the Number of night hours required is 12. Not a lot.
if you do the offshore Yachtmaster the requirement changes from hours to 2 overnight passages as skipper. So the required time in hours of darknesses is not specified. Hence why I wondered why anyone would bother recording individual hours of darkness.
The answer. Turns out if you want a coastal YM you need to record 12.

Leaving the question. If you recorded sailing from here to the and back again over night as skipper 2 or more times. Meeting The specified presumably higher requirement for an Offshore YM. Would this be acceptable if taking a coastal YM.
it might seam like a silly question. But there is quite a big difference in overall mileage required.
I think if I were to accurately fill out a form.
I would have a couple of relatively longer passages some of which required me to sail overnight.
I sometimes do some of my relatively short passages overnight because I want to be somewhere.
or I set of and the wind being fickle by the time I gets there it’s gotten dark.
but my actual overall mileage within the last 5 or 10 years is actually not very high, most of my sailing consists of pottering about within a few miles of home.

I quite like sailing at night it’s quite peaceful, relaxing, the sky on a clear night offshore can be spectacular and surprisingly not any more difficult than sailing during the day. Sometimes even easier Where it’s well lit.

One of those things I miss from my days of yore, Round the UK. We don’t really have many decent size lights with a nice loom to see I always liked those.
Still I don’t suppose anyone bothers to plot a dipping range these days. I always thought it was kind of neat. Particularly if you could find a nice big one when making land fall.

 

[Sandy]

One of those things I miss from my days of yore, Round the UK. We don’t really have many decent size lights with a nice loom to see I always liked those.

Still I don’t suppose anyone bothers to plot a dipping range these days. I always thought it was kind of neat. Particularly if you could find a nice big one when making land fall.

While a huge fan of lighthouses. However, I am frustrated by the way they now work. More on/off on/off with no sweep of the light. It is the sweep of light just on the horizon I miss.

 

[lustyd]

Only the limited experience bit.

Perhaps my post was worded badly as you definitely seemed to be in agreement that although they may not have years of experience they do have enough experience to pass the exam as set out by the RYA. To suggest they should have more seems odd since they clearly do meet the requirements and regularly do pass. More experience is always nice, but it’s not necessary as others were suggesting.

 

[ncounties]

Perhaps my post was worded badly as you definitely seemed to be in agreement that although they may not have years of experience they do have enough experience to pass the exam as set out by the RYA. To suggest they should have more seems odd since they clearly do meet the requirements and regularly do pass. More experience is always nice, but it’s not necessary as others were suggesting.

I was refraining from getting into a debate about the merits of a zero to hero course, particularly as I doubt the OP would be asking such a question if they were on one.

One would hope after spending several thousands of £/€'s on a zero to hero course with a school, spending a number of weeks sailing the same boat types, in the same waters, that you'd pass. You'd also hope that they got a bit more than 2 or 5 days in charge. How well they sail on another boat type, in different waters is another question. I've seen zero to heros unable to successfully tie a secure oxo, multiple times on one trip.

Regardless of whether you are upset with my advice or not, it's good advice. There are minimum requirements, but its good to exceed them if you want to be a well rounded sailor and get the most out of your prep week, and have the best chance of passing the assessment.

 

[capnsensible]

I was refraining from getting into a debate about the merits of a zero to hero course, particularly as I doubt the OP would be asking such a question if they were on one.

One would hope after spending several thousands of £/€'s on a zero to hero course with a school, spending a number of weeks sailing the same boat types, in the same waters, that you'd pass. You'd also hope that they got a bit more than 2 or 5 days in charge. How well they sail on another boat type, in different waters is another question. I've seen zero to heros unable to successfully tie a secure oxo, multiple times on one trip.

Regardless of whether you are upset with my advice or not, it's good advice. There are minimum requirements, but its good to exceed them if you want to be a well rounded sailor and get the most out of your prep week, and have the best chance of passing the assessment.

A lot of fast trackers I helped train have gone on to have great careers in the boating industry.

Mebbe it's just me.

 

[john_morris_uk]

A lot of fast trackers I helped train have gone on to have great careers in the boating industry.

Mebbe it's just me.

Good teachers get the best out of their students.

You and I know that I never examined any of your candidates but I’ve examined zero to hero candidates for other schools and they don’t all pass.

On the day, some are good and one or two are not. Nerves or what? I don’t know as I can only give people a chance to prove their ability and after a couple of failed attempts, protestations that ‘I don’t normally do that’ or ‘I’ve never done that before’ tends to fall on deaf ears.

 

[Praxinoscope]

I thought I would look back at my old RYA G15/78 log book that I submitted before I took my YM exam, I logged up a total of 3090nm 119 of which were night hours, so well in excess of the RYA requirements, but I wasn’t looking for speed of gaining the YM but as high a level of competence that I could achieve.

 

[Skylark]

I've gone back to the RYA website and have to say it is as clear as mud, but I have written technical standards in a past life.



Source RYA Yachtmaster Offshore exam

Seems quite clear to me. Your cut and paste did not include the “note 3” symbol after Certificate of Competence. The reduced requirement is for when a candidate already holds YM Sail and wants to be examine for YM Power, and vice versa.

 

[srm]

Very many years ago I was running RYA practical courses at around latitude 60 N. There were very few hours between sunset and sunrise, and even those did not get fully dark until well into August so I only signed log books to credit the few hours that were reasonably dark and the candidate had spent on deck. I don't regard time in a bunk as actively contributing to or learning about sailing.

 

[Fr J Hackett]

I never felt the need to pursue or obtain a YM qualification nor did I feel the need to maintain a personal log, a ships passage log was a very different thing which I kept for the duration of the passage and then more often than not discarded either at the end or when I found the paper log in the chart table some time afterwards, the pencil marks on the accompanying chart would be expunged when the chart was next required. So after many thousands of miles and several hundred night hours many of which were on my own and most as skipper I suppose I wouldn't be eligible to apply to take a YM examination until I either constructed a log ( do they need to be signed off by someone? and if so what about all those people that either sail single handed or just two up? I appreciate that part of the YM examination is to demonstrate the safe handling of a vessel and crew management)