RYA - New 'Basic' Navigation Course

alant

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RYA - New \'Basic\' Navigation Course

New '2 day' or 16 hour course being introduced by RYA - No end-of -course assessment & even the Portland Plotter is shorter!

Is this dumbing down, or the way forward?
 

SlowlyButSurely

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Re: RYA - New \'Basic\' Navigation Course

I'd say this is in line with the new dumbed down breed of yachtsman and mobo driver that we seem to encounter more and more these days and unless the RYA and the mags start promoting small boats for beginners I'd say this approach is a good idea.
 

Daedelus

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Re: RYA - New \'Basic\' Navigation Course

Desperate attempt to get those who are going to get in their new boat and go, to have at least the basics.

I think the quote was money rich time poor from the RYA. Let's face it, it's nice if the PWC or similar user has an inkling of how to read a chart (you mean that asterisk is a rock?), but they don't really need to go into the detail of mercator or gnomic projection - at first. Nice if they knew the colregs too!
 

Birdseye

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Re: RYA - New \'Basic\' Navigation Course

Dont know. I'm a shore based instructor and I'm wondering exactly what they are going to miss out of day skipper in this basic nav course. Do you teach them DR only? Or miss out course to steer? Or are we to simply show how to press the GPS buttons and plot the result?

As it is, I find it difficult to work out what to leave out of DS and put in YM. Dare you teach people only a part of colregs for example - because they have to obey the lot of it and ignorance is no excuse. Do you miss out secondary ports when in some areas these are really important?

Maybe I'm getting cynical but I sometimes feel that the RYA is focussed more on income from selling courses than they are on a sensible structured approach to what is needed. Best exanple of this is the failure to serve up the practical certs in a form which is acceptable as an ICC, but there is also the question of the largely redundant coastal skipper level.

Ah well - I suppose that mine is not to reason why ...............
 

iain789

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Re: RYA - New \'Basic\' Navigation Course

Yep, miss out course to steer - gets my vote! Did my CS shorebased 10 years ago, remember hours working out the CTS problems. Not too difficult if you had a working knowledge of vectors, but some of the other class members were struggling.

Thing is I haven't worked out a 'course to steer' since - not once - despite a lot of sailing in my home waters (Clyde and Western Isles) and further afield. I suppose it's great for that glow of inner satisfaction you might get from making a landfall in por vis exactly where you said you would, but with modern navaids and back ups how necessary is it really? In 20 years with grey funnel line we never worked out a CTS either.
 

JREdginton

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Re: RYA - New \'Basic\' Navigation Course

CTS - [ QUOTE ]
how necessary is it really

[/ QUOTE ]

Quite, if you want to get to your destination without sailing in a graceful 'S' bend /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif or for that matter allowing you to go conciderable distances in relative safety when all your electronics have gone 'phut' /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif

On the whole I am glad that the RYA is trying to pitch courses that the average 'Tesco car park driver' /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif will find accesible, surely it is better for the coming generation of day and pwc sailors/drivers to have some knowledge /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif I know the addage, 'a little knowledge' but all the same, at least teach 'em to drive on the right side of the road, where to give way, and enable them to stop thinking like the water is a tarmac surface /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Taking the longer view, with the EU nailing everything down it is only going to be a matter of time till some individual looks at accident stats and decides we need legislation, if a little knowledge widely spread reduces these stats then maybe we will retain our liberty? Well, I can hope can't I?
 

fluffc

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Re: RYA - New \'Basic\' Navigation Course

I believe that the RYA is trying to tackle a problem with falling numbers on longer 'traditional' courses.

In recent years they have:

Chopped up the Level 3, 4 and 5 Dinghy Sailing Scheme into weekend-length modules.

Chopped up and remodeled the Dinghy SI course into two weekends, with a workbook to make up.

It seems that this is a continuation of existing policy, to try and make courses available as one-weekend 'slots'.

It does raise lots of problems though, about what goes in/out and the ability of students to remember stuff from one course to the next; one weekend does not allow any time for 'revision'.
 

hoped4

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Re: RYA - New \'Basic\' Navigation Course

I too think this is a good idea. It'll act as a stepping stone to DS and encourage more people new to boats to take this as an intro.
A lttle knowledge is a dangerous thing but no knowledge is worse. Has somone already said this? I did DS 2 yrs ago and consider that I too need to get more knwoledge and experience... but this was a first step. Yes it is probably a money making exercise by the RYA - but they have spotted a gap and a need and are filling it.
 

Kawasaki

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Re: RYA - New \'Basic\' Navigation Course

We have to face it.
Lots of the newer peeps on the block rely on Plotters and other electrickery bits.
If a 2 Day Course can encourage them to combine their leccky bits with a sound backing up of the paper bits, albeit with a shortened "Potland/ Bretton Plotter" so be it.
The Commercial boating World uses all the technology it can.
PB2 is popular cos it,s 2 days. For a raw begiinner a good 2 days at that.
Pinning peeps down to 5 Days or a 20 night , Night Class is a bit harder.
The need to tweek Day Skip to involve more electronics is sound.
Lets face it there are more of them and they are more reliable these days.
A week last Sunday however was out on a PB2.
No vis , student gawping at the plotter/gps on the rig.
Dive boat, about 35 ft came out of nowhere at 15/16 kts ish.
Student didn,t see it.
We did cos we were looking and listening so no probs.
The newbie however was glued to the Instrument cos He thought that would be His Saviour!
The Syllabus says it will include the following.
Charts and Publications
Safety, including engine checks
Buoyage
Tidal awareness
Visual navigation and pilotage
Rules of the road
Electronic navigation
Anchoring
Weather forecasts
Passage planning.
Edit from RYA Wavelength.
"Hopefully, your Students will be so enthused by the shorter course, that they will want to study the subject in more depth (isn't 10 metres in the Straits enough then? oops taking the p%ss!) and go on to take a Day Skipper course"
Hmm, dunno about the last paragraph.
Think the content of said Course looks ok though.
 

duncan

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Re: RYA - New \'Basic\' Navigation Course

I agree the undelying sentiment of your post

this bit

[ QUOTE ]
Taking the longer view, with the EU nailing everything down it is only going to be a matter of time till some individual looks at accident stats and decides we need legislation

[/ QUOTE ] however would please me - ie if they actually checked the stats rather than assumed them!
 

Koeketiene

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Re: RYA - New \'Basic\' Navigation Course

[ QUOTE ]

Maybe I'm getting cynical but I sometimes feel that the RYA is focussed more on income from selling courses than they are on a sensible structured approach to what is needed.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're not alone - the RYA is a business first & foremost.
The fact that it's supposed to be about boats is almost incidental. /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif
 

powerskipper

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Re: RYA - New \'Basic\' Navigation Course

Its a good course,well what I have seen of it so far it is, It a common sense approach, What basic info do you need to keep you safe on the water.
The course is aimed at,
jet skis,
dingy,
small boat fisherman,
windsurfers,
kite surfers
rowers,
ski boats
power boat level 1 or 2

the peeps that enjoy the water but may not have the need for all the info involved and would or could not commit the time needed to do the full day skipper course.
Also less adult education places are running them as the government with drew funding for them.
 

gandy

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Re: RYA - New \'Basic\' Navigation Course

Could it make the Day Skipper shorebased course redundant? Next step after the two day course would be the CS/YM Shorebased.

I did the CS/YM Shorebased without doing the DS first, it isn't really a problem for people who've been sailing a while and have taken an interest in picking up some of the theory as they go along.
 

Sailfree

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Re: RYA - New \'Basic\' Navigation Course

Pleased to see informed comment rather than "in my day we had to " type comments.

I often think that we are too keen on traditional methods where for a large number the most important thing is to know the main method which with cheaper electric gagets, started sailing boats being about 36' or MoBo's having the most sophisticated gear is Chartplotter & Radar.

Get them hooked first by making it relevant and easy, most will then want go on to DS and YM which will cover the times when the lights go out!

I think the RYA could do themselves a big favour by encouraging insurance companies to give bigger discounts to those that are careful enough/prepared enough to study and pass these voluntary examinations.
 

Marsupial

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Re: RYA - New \'Basic\' Navigation Course

Hi

I’ll take your word it’s a good course, anything that improves safety on the water is a good idea. The withdrawal of funding from community learning has meant that desk navigational skills are no longer taught in colleges so anything to redress the balance is helpful. But one aspect of this “course” worries me, and my worries are not confined to RYA courses there is a dark underlying assumption that is becoming widespread in education. It’s the assumption that the human mind can take on board, that is comprehend, assimilate and understand lots of new concepts in a very short period of time. My experience as an educator tells me that this is far from reality, students (of all age groups) need time to assimilate, if only we could give students pills for Java, Maths or Economics, perhaps injections for Philosophy, Sepositories for network security it would speed up the learning process – but we can’t.

Students have brains, which despite modern technology learn in the same way and at the same rate as humans did a couple of thousand years ago and this is the limiting factor. Trying to cram too much into a syllabus in a short time serves only to confuse the student, but it salves the conscience of the course designer who can claim to have “covered all the bases”.

As others have said which half of the col-regs will they learn? (remember) if any?? And someone mentioned weather, and charts and tides and “electronics” – beware - don’t for one moment think that modern students have a gene for electronics! As a previous poster suggested students think the answer lies in the screen – thus demonstrating a complete lack of understanding of what the screen is telling them (or not telling them) I see this behaviour every day but hey its hard to cause injury crashing a desktop running excel or project!

Just a thought – now back to work
 

Richard10002

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Re: RYA - New \'Basic\' Navigation Course

IMHO As has already been said, something is better than nothing, and people are free to buy a big boat and go boating with NIL experience and NIL training - so anything which encourages them to do even a little training must be good.

On assimilation.... the fact that it has been fed into the brain, albeit forgotten in the short term, means that it can be pulled out of the brain over a period of time and experience.

1 day on Diesel Engines is not enough to learn all that is taught, but I now understand how it works, what might go wrong, and how to do some simple jobs. I cant remember all that I was taught, but I will recall it when I open a book to refresh the memory.

I hope they are taught that if there is something they dont remember, there will probably be a book on board with some info on it.... Almanacs, Pilots, RYA Course Books, etc.. I find that knowing where to find the answer is often as important as knowing the answer.

I hope they are taught prop walk and prop wash - in 30 years i have never really understood it or used it but, since doing a day on boat handling in September, I dont think I have used the bow thruster in anger.

I'm currently rubber stamping my experience by doing Yachtmaster, (having sailed for 30+ years and having been a Merchant Navy Deck Officer 23 years ago). Things that I learned 25 years ago, but havent used since, are easier to recall/relearn than if I had never done them.

I dont think a short course can do any harm, and it will probably do a lot of good.

Just my 2 pennorth, and not a response to anyone in particular.
 
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Skyva_2

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Re: RYA - New \'Basic\' Navigation Course

Just in case there is any misconception, local authority colleges can still offer RYA shorebased courses of most kinds. They have to recover the full cost - in the case of Oxfordshire this is about £220, not a huge increase on previous costs, and student numbers have not reduced. Still v good value compared to commercial training centres.

In my experience the authority made every effort to keep courses going, despite a mad round of reorganisation every 2 years. Sadly this is not the case in every county.
Seems to me the 2 day basic course is a good offering for the target audience.
 

fireball

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Re: RYA - New \'Basic\' Navigation Course

The problem may arise for the few who say "I've done the RYA Nav course - I don't need to do any more" ...

There are few ways in which to make ppl take a course:

Financial incentive - cheaper insurance with each level of qualification? or more expensive without more like! - but what about those with experience?)

Interesting Course content - but not everyone is going to be interested

Moral Grounds - scare them silly with what could happen if they don't know what they are doing

Legal Requirement - please don't go there!



Unfortunately there is no financial incentive - rather the opposite in fact - but shorter courses should be cheaper and more likely to be attended. Interesting Course content - another difficult one as some ppl will be interested and others just will not. Moral Grounds - well - I suppose we should be encouraging ppl to join the sport (why?!) rather than scaring them off - but a certain amount of respect for the skills required would be good. Legal Requirement ... no ... just don't ... or perhaps the Basic Nav course will be the equivalent of the driving theory test?
 
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