RYA - National Handicap for Cruisers (NHC) new scheme replaces PYS

[Quandary]

The problem I have with this system is that it benefits mediocrity.

Exactly, why bother to compete, if you do not try the system will give you a win anyway just to encourage you. Why encourage mediocrity and lack of effort?
Aaaah right I get it, it is the same culture that took competitive sport out of our schools, it is better not to have competition, as if you do someone might lose and then how could you cope with their disappointment?

For any club that does not want this daft approach all you have to do is to go the CYCA website to get realistic continually updated performance adjusted ratings for every boat that ever hit the water.

 

[PeterR]

They arent inaccurate at all - they are related to the IRC numbers so they are what you should be able to sail to. That said, doing what you propose or using the new system, you will end up with the same relativities after a few races anyway. In effect all the RYA have done is to adopt the IRC model to get a starter handicap number rather than have anyone with an uncommon boat toddling off to Byron software to get one calculated by him. And they have done this because club secretaries could not be bothered to send data back to the RYA to allow PY handicaps to be generated from actual race results

I finally got to see the NYC base list after downloading the converter for Excel 2007 - I wish the RYA would still issue files in a format compatible with older versions of Excel.

I agree the numbers seem to be related to IRC TCCs with the majority being within 10 points but after a quick check against some real IRCs I noticed an awful lot of big anomalies. Only about 60% were within 20 points on both systems with a fair number being over 30 points different.

The worst example I noticed was the 2009 version of the First 35 which normally rates around 1.025 under IRC but has a NHY of .980. A lot of the J boats have very odd figures as well, for instance the J109 normally rates between 1.020 and 1.030 but has a NHY of 0.989.

I really do not understand how they have come up with these figures, an explanation would have been nice.

I know the anomalies will be resolved over time but a boat with a base rating of 45 points less than its true rating is going to have a huge advantage for the first few races of a series if she manages her finishing times carefully.

 

[awol]

For any club that does not want this daft approach all you have to do is to go the CYCA website to get realistic continually updated performance adjusted ratings for every boat that ever hit the water.

Took me a while to stop laughing at that one! I love racing under CYCA and it's nice when I win but the major fun part is the boat-to-boat racing against similar boats. The handicap bandits are there and every sailor can point to some really dodgy yins. In a moment of relaxation from shovelling snow today I compared the time allowances of my particular bête noir (où peut-être bête rouge) and found 21secs per hour of sailing under NHC compared with 3min 52sec under CYCA - I know which I prefer!

 

[Javelin]

Some of the changes between pn and the new NHC are very strange and for the life of me I can't see why such a change has been made.
The Contention 33 and UFO had the same PN and now, essentially overnight there's an 18 point spread with the Contention33 slower than a Fulmar.

In the dinghy handicap world the PY has always been a hot and contentious issue.
Some classes have adopted Carbon rigs, laminate sails, carbon foils, huge increases in Spinnaker sizes and the PY has largely remained the same despite the obvious improvement in performance.
One argument was that the top guys sailed on the Class circuit and rarely entered handicap races so any returns would be warped and base around club sailors.

With respect to Club cruiser races, surely the aim is to do as well as you can and have fun doing it.
As with any fleet, mixed or one design, you generally race against the two boats above and below you in the results each week which tends to be reasonably stable.
Therefore polishing your bottom is not about being No1, it's about trying to get in front of Fred or Harry the next time and making sure you keep Frank and Phil behind.

Some time ago I created an organisation called Fastsail, sadly defunct now, but we ran an annual regatta for 4 years with between 70 to 110 boats racing on py handicaps.
We adjusted handicaps from the published based on age of boat and from advice given by the Class on the performance of all their known boats.
The winners got to say they won but that was it, the 30k worth of sponsor prizes all went to folk down the fleet for numerous reasons, many performance related but for example a set of new sails went to a boat that needed them and NOT to a top boat.
The atmosphere at these events was terrific, unfortunately the event got so big that after four years my wife and I just couldn't handle it on our own so we handed it over to a committee to run it and after three years it died.

 

[Merlinman67]

I agree with Javelin. I am not too sure where the base numbers have come from, but The RYA have sent me an expanded list today with the boats I requested base numbers included.

I asked for a number for a Cobra 750 which people will know is a fairly slow bilge keel boat which never in a month of Sundays would be quicker than my Bolero 1/4 Tonner, but according to the base numbers is now 30 odd points faster. Additionally I asked for a base number for a Wylo II which is a hard chined Steel Gaff rigged boat that doesn't sail to windward for Toffee. We used to rate her on PY around 1200, the NHC base number has come out as in excess of 1.000 and faster than a J109 and a Cork 1720?????? these figures can't be right and anomalies like this make a farse of the whole system.

 

[awol]

Try the Macgregor 26X - fast boats! - apparently.

 

[Javelin]

Perhaps the RYA got confused when seeing the Mcgregor racing,
See this drag race. - very sad...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eovBozRo5gg

 

[Quandary]

I usually raced one design when we were serious but had to do handicap racing as well to keep active using the old Channel Handicap and its successor but in recent times have done WHYC under CYCA, the classes are varied and for instance our current boat a Finngulf 33 gives time to Bavs and Jeanneaus of around 40' but the results inour class and others over the week tend to go with the quality of the crew and the effort put in. I have been racing since the mid seventies and in all that time the one consistent thing was the moaning about handicaps by guys who at the same time were plotting to subvert the system if possible. Handicap racing is never going to be 'fair' if it was there would be nothing to talk about in the club bar afterwards, there are still some one design classes but their relative size indicates that most skippers are happier with a system they think they can screw.

 

[RYATechnical]

Good Morning,

There are some interesting points being rasied here - some more accurate than others.

This is a busy time of year generally for the Technical Department so I do not have the luxury of time to review forums however I would encourage anyone who wishes to know more either to contact us directly or to ask for either myself or Andy Wibroe to give a talk at your club explaning the NHC scheme in a little more detail.

Cheers,

Bas Edmonds
RYA Technical Manager

 

[onesea]

Handicap racing is never going to be 'fair' if it was there would be nothing to talk about in the club bar afterwards, there are still some one design classes but their relative size indicates that most skippers are happier with a system they think they can screw.

I think that is a bit harsh, is it not more a case of most owners buy a boat that is a compromise and at present there are no boats like the Sigma 33 & 38 that appealed to masses of owners?

I am not certain we will ever see larger boat fleets of that size again, in the meant time owners are buying boats that appeal to them. Yes obviously if your buying to win in handicap racing you are going to look for a boat that is well rated.

 

[Seajet]

Or like me, with a boat I primarily cruise and just have the odd race for a laugh; as it's within my club it's bound to be a handicap job, no intention of screwing results, the boat and crew just turn up, do our best and see what happens, a pity all racing isn't like that.