RYA money money money

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tangomoon

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Have posted this here in case any one doesn't go on other forums anyway this is my main forum!

We thought we'd join the RYA and explore the fantastic world of discounts, of their prices, advice, free International Certificate of Competence - OOhHH we thought! - What do we need to get that - ring them up - Day skipper not good enough - Yachtmaster theory not good enough - Power boat level 2 - Yes, but only for a power boat up to 10 metres - we have a yacht would it do for that? - NO - you need Yachtmaster practical - £3/400 ish for automatic qualification to ICC.

As an aside - wife thought she'd like to teach theory to youngsters say up to 18 about seamanship or to Day Skipper standard - for free except for cost of books - can't expect the RYA to supply them for nothing - fair enough - What do you need to qualify as teacher for Day Skipper theory? - Yachtmaster Practical - £3/400 ish quids - so much for our wish to help youngsters get going. It isn't even the money - she doesn't want to take the Yachtmaster Practical not that she can't she does all the navigation, sails up/down/trim/logbook/weather/helps teach Yachtmaster theory to adults has done Physics, Pure Maths, Applied Maths. So we're talking one of the sharpest tools in the box here.

The conflicting advice and statements from that organisation don't help matters either. Any thoughts to get through the shambles we all know or shouldwe just leave the kids on the streets to do enough mischief until they get an ASBO/ Caution/added to the increasing list of disaffected.

RYA as PBO mentioned has been short of teachers in the past and -well we don't care about that - they do have a monopoly though and its a lovely money making one that is affecting us all. Well that's the blue touch paper lit.
 
The ICC isnt an RYA piece of paper for them to set the standard as they wish. Its an IMO document and the test has to be to a standard acceptable to overseas jurisdictions . Thats the Day skipper level (note - not the shorevased course but the proper day skipper ticket). Not surprising really since the alternative exam includes practical boat handling which cant be done on a shorbased course.

At one time the ICC was dished out by club commadores on the "he's a jolly sound chap "basis, and not surprisingly the foreiners across the channel refused to accept it. Interestingly, the Germans are already muttering about the SRC licence course we do - apparently they take three days to teach you to operate a marine VHF radio!

As for instructing kids, do you think teachers in schools should be well qualified and checked by exams? Why not teachers of sailing kids? And its hardly as if you are talking of lots of money and a difficult test.
 
/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif I do love a bun fight. Forum has deteriorated badly in two years though. Not here though.

/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif
 
Assuming your comments are serious and not just a general stir I'll rise to the bait.
Where do you get the figure of £3/400 for Yachtmaster practical from as this seems incorrect to me. The cost of the Yachtmaster exam is the cost for the examiner for a day and is around £100 (I can't be bothered to look up the exact figure but it's not bad for a full day of someone's time with admin overheads).
The cost you are quoting is the cost of doing a commercial 5 day course prior to the exam and is not a requisite, of course if you feel you need the training to be able to meet the standard then that's a different matter but if someone can't pass the exam without it perhaps they should carefully consider their qualification to teach others anyway.
It is all very well knowing the theory but if the owner of that knowledge is not capable of putting the theory into practise would you have faith in them?
As to giving out ICC's willy nilly as has already been pointed out there is a set standard for automatic issue and that has nothing to do with the RYA who are acting responsibly in insisting on the standards.
In any case if you don't want to go the Yachtmaster route to get an ICC why not just do the ICC?
 
No, it is a genuine debate.

Have you read the last issue of PBO where Chief Examiner debates this and mentions shortage of teachers due to haviing to be 'over-qualified.'

Cost is if you don't have your own boat and go to a school using theirs.

Careful in fact detailed consideration has been given to whether others can be taught.

http://www.ryasailingcourses.co.uk/rya_sailing_courses/seaschool.htm

ICC as said in my post - you are quite correct and giving them out 'willy nilly' has only been mentioned by you.

Ref taking ICC alone - of course that is an option but that is not the discussion.

[ QUOTE ]
but if someone can't pass the exam without it perhaps they should carefully consider their qualification to teach others anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would have thought but am not advocating it, that for someone who is going to teach, doing the whole course whole where a person is assessed and filthy habits they have picked up since passing theory and while watching other less than skilled players, would be ironed out by an instructor who puts them right all day evry day for a week and then they have to sit an exam that the examiner was sure that person was fit to teach others.

Afraid your statement seems to say a lesser standard is acceptable whereas someone who aims higher and wants the expert guidance is frowned upon.

[ QUOTE ]
It is all very well knowing the theory but if the owner of that knowledge is not capable of putting the theory into practise would you have faith in them?

[/ QUOTE ]

I only have faith in me, what I can see and know is right and my ability to get myself an others out of mischief. Your statement applies to most people, including me, who achieving their YM or DS theory. Yet off they go - family in tow and trust to what they can remember gradually honing their skills and having narrow escapes or listening to others that they learn from. The RYA evening classes is supplying a lot of info, which if absorbed will keep you out of trouble but it is you who must make yourself skilled in its application (obviously)

However a slight digression it is good to know what others think but what we want is youngsters out on the water and learning NOW.
 
The examination charge for the YM offshore practical is very reasonable for a highly qualified and experienced man usually on a weekend. Compare that with the cost of a plumber / electrician for 12 or more weekend hours.

You cant hold the RYA responsible for the cost of chartering a boat to do the exam in.

Im not sure what alternative there is. The RYA campaigns for voluntary qualification in the UK then sets up a system where those that choose to can obtain qualifications that are respected worldwide.Either take up the challenge or dont ,its not compulsory.
 
a growing claim culture in this country, everybody is very jittery about teaching ,and learning and getting qualifications,everybody seems to not want take the blame when the s**t hits the fan. since joining e u its paperwork ,nothing gets done when iwas young you had boys brigade, sea scouts , sea cadets.
 
I agree about the claim culture bit Tim .

You make it sound as if noone is willing to do anything these days and that isnt right.There are at least 3 active scout groups in Barry Alone. I believe the Sea Cadets still exist as well.Was over the boat this morning and there were dozens of kids being taught in Oppies and toppers with a mixture of proffesional instructors and willing volunteers in safety boats etc. Really great to see so many of them doing something worthwile.

Sure the leaders and helpers have to jump through a few more hoops to keep within the rules these days. Just to be a parent helper with the scouts I had to attend a short course on child protection and have a police check. Not a bad thing IMHO.Theres no doubt that in the past these organizations have been used by some adults with evil intent.


Fortunately there are still some decent people willing to run scouts etc .
 
There is also an organization called the Maritime Volunteer Service(MVS)that meet up on a wednesday night over the dock and teach all aspects of seamanship they also have their own craft to practice on.
 
Thanks for your considered points.
I do not blame the RYA - their courses are doing a good job of disseminating information for safer boating.

Your 'experienced man may have been on a week's course and become certificated as YM - not a lot of experience there. Don't you think. It's fine because what he passes on to others will make a big difference to their skills

You're missing the point. I am saying that it is an over-qualification to expect to have to do the practical to be able to teach the theory of a lesser exam.

You have also exemplified the other point that it is those with the money who can do it. This causes exclusion and does not give us the best teachers.

Because of our backgrounds we would not describe sailing, seamanship, navigation particularly challenging. The sextant is a bit heavy! We can and do teach it to other people though.

You are right it's not compulsory - yet.
 
I can understand your frustration at the system that requires you to have YM practical when you only wish to teach theory.

i do think that a person with considerable practical experience will make a better all round instructor.

The "experienced person" I referred to in the earlier answer to you was the YM examiner who will have done a lot more than a weeks course. I have a feeling you know that allready .

Im not missing the point,I hear what you say but dont agree with you.

Not worth us debating it too much I doubt the decision makers at the RYA will be much influenced by our little forum. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

good Luck
 
"I am saying that it is an over-qualification to expect to have to do the practical to be able to teach the theory of a lesser exam."

I wasn't going to get involved, but I would like to take issue with this point. My background is in mountaineering and I am a qualified climbing instructor, and when teaching at novice level I think it is very dangerous if the instructor has not been able to demonstrate that they have reached a certain degree of practical knowledge, and have enough experience. A little knowledge can be a dangerous thing, as we all know, even in the theoretical aspects of an activity.

I have sometimes cringed when hearing a well-meaning but "poorly qualified" instructor saying stuff like "This is what you must do when such-and-such happens" or "You should always do this" or "This is the way you must always tie a knot" etc etc. A teacher with good experience would be able to point out why sometimes an alternative might be better, and be able to give examples from their own history.

I have been in an RYA classroom when the instructor said "An anchor rode should have a scope of 4:1", and when I pointed out that this would depend on numerous factors, especially in the Bristol Channel, he said that that was beyond the scope of that level of course. Fair enough I suppose, but not to make clear that it merited further study, and wasn't a fixed rule, was remiss of him IMO.

The main point I am trying to get across is that a well-meaning instructor MAY not have the requisite experience to know when their advice is inadequate, and the RYA is quite right to require someone to be able to demonstrate their practical knowledge at a higher level. There is nothing to stop someone teaching others, but in the name of the RYA you must play by their rules.
 
The RYA are aware 'over-qualification' has been a problem to them in the past.

You may have had an 'experienced' person in mind', I only had the person who could take a 7 day course and be qualified as per the RYA stance that you have put forward.

Good sailing
 
Knew you would get involved /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Bit unfair ref RYA chap saying 4 to 1 They only carry out RYA instructions. human error is not accounted for only that those going to sea must use their heads even after an RYA course that gives them an excellent insight into what they have to do. It is however only an insight like your mountaineering instruction. it is ony when you are out there or in your case up there that you can hope to use what you have ben taught. Sometimes teachers do put it over badly for what ever reason but you're the one with the responsibility and what ever happens you have to drop anchor and wait to see if it drags then lengthen the rode if it does or you may be too close to shore or the guy next door or the tide is dropping further than you thought. It's not nannying because what happens to you when you're doing the stuff is not always going to be covered by what you were told in the class room. You will however know which knots to tie or try /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif IF you (whoever) listened.

I would guess that the majority of boaters, all kinds, went out there with little knowledge but muddled through getting the experience in as they went. We know numerous people who have been sailing for donkey's years who have only just decided to do a course in navigation or don't want to and rely on chart plotter. One has, after 25years, oly just learned that you should sail by tell-tales for best performance and doesn't know how to navigate but follows the arrow on his GPS! He has survived thus far like many others! Some texhing has to be better than no teaching and the more that are taught the better. if it's affordable they will take the course, if not they don't. It was an elitist hobby, now a huge number can afford the boat but won't or can't afford the RYA course. I'm sure plans are afoot and hope they can be given a nudge.

Hey! I just thought. i knew a chap in Dorset years ago. he was 72 or so I think. Joined the RAF les than 6 weeks training - up in a Spitfire. Come on chaps. Best of British Let's not promulgate the nanny state (EU) straight cucumbers and all that!
 
wether your glass is half full or half empty, the one thing you have to get across is that common sense preveils, boating can be avery dangerous pastime, especially in this channel. seamanship is not an exact science you must always err on the safety factor which somebody who has just passed an exam dont do. look at the mortality rate of young drivers
 
Thanks for the reply

That mortality rate you refer to is much lower than the number of pedestrians killed by the older much older (more experienced?) drivers in the 30s and 40s.

Boating has a wonderful safety record. I do believe though that the highest call-out for the RNLI ref boats is for 'older' people. The young do well and must be encouraged to push the boundaries. Their capabilities are vast when given direction.
 
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