RYA - lost the plot?

[VO5]

I do see. Not only was the skipper so lacking in acumen that he either considered ramming the dock at full speed to be a good idea or was unable to manipulate a simple engine control, but the rest of the crew were also so incompetent that they couldn't be trusted to steer the boat, even for short spells in benign conditions.

It doesn't sound so much like you supervised the night watch as were the sole functioning member of it. I hope that the others could at least make good coffee.

Yes. all of them bankers and financiers, but not exactly hands on. But good fun and one in particular had some strange culinary skills. He boiled eggs in the kettle and served up a monstrous omelette.

 

[Simondjuk]

Just be patient and give John Morris the opportunity to reply.
The question is addressed to him specifically.
He is perfectly capable of understanding exactly what I mean.

Very well, although I'm more curious to hear your own opinion on how one should release remove [sic] a preventer than his. The question itself is bonkers, so I can only wonder at the likely answer.

 

[VO5]

Very well, although I'm more curious to hear your own opinion on how one should release remove [sic] a preventer than his. The question itself is bonkers, so I can only wonder at the likely answer.

I promise you the question is not bonkers. The correct answer is very relevant I promise you, I sincerely do.

 

[lpdsn]

The plot is still missing then.

 

[Simondjuk]

Hmm, I keep deleting posts when leaving the page. One last go, identical to the previous two...

Well at least they were good for something if not sailing then.

The more I hear though, the more certain I am that I wouldn't have left such a clueless bunch to bring the boat alongside without my being on deck to offer guidance if needed, her belonging to one of said group or not.

Skipper included, they had been found severely lacking. The crash was all but inevitable, yet in their moment of most need, when you could have saved the day with the words "Good blast of astern now, Skip!" alone, you abandoned them all and turned instead to drink!

 

[john_morris_uk]

I am at a loss as to what 'superior and specific seamanship' VO5 is expecting me to describe. I feel he's trying to set up a huge poo trap and is waiting to say, "I told you so; that RYA examiner and Instructor knows nothing."

Does he want me to describe how to de-rig a preventor or release it when it's under load of release it under normal circumstances?

The real answer is that it all depends on lots of factors and you apply some understanding and seamanship to arrive at a sensible solution.

I'm happy to answer specific questions with suggestions (IMHO) as to what might be a seamanlike solution but engaging in point scoring is another matter.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Not a loaded question at all. A very specific and clear question.
But probably from your viewpoint "loaded".
Easy to understand your viewpoint as obviously you do not have the answer.
I am interested to see what John Morris will explain for the benefit of all of you and to my satisfaction.
And if he does not explain, I will then explain in detail.
But you have to be patient and give him a chance to reply. OK ?

Give us a clue. Does it involve 100,000 guillotines?

 

[john_morris_uk]

Give us a clue. Does it involve 100,000 guillotines?

Silence was the loud reply.

Just be patient and give John Morris the opportunity to reply.
The question is addressed to him specifically.
He is perfectly capable of understanding exactly what I mean.
Read more at http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?457964-RYA-lost-the-plot/page10#ReVgSeQoASZIVAit.99

Except I've no idea what you are getting at...

There's no trick of seamanship to removing a preventor (except the elementary ones of making sure you are not going to accidentally gybe and 'don't dance around on the coach roof putting yourself in danger of falling overboard etc.). I normally put the boat onto a reach and/or over sheet the main to make sure the end of the boom is within easy reach. Apply some common sense....?

It makes me wonder what pearl of seamanship wisdom VO5 believes he has to share with the forum.

 

[awol]

He tied a tight bowline to the end of the boom and led the preventer to the leeward midship cleat and made it fast.......the next thing that happened was that the wind shifted, backing the mainsail. I challenged him as to what course of action he would take to remedy his blunder. He had no idea. So I steered the boat off the wind sufficiently for the mainsail to flap and take the tension off sufficient for the preventer be taken off the cleat.

I think this is the scenario for VO5's question. Quite how steering the boat off the wind causes the mainsail to flap, I don't know. The answer may have something to do with short bowlines, centre cleats, ropes through guard wires, locking turns on cleats, and incompetent helmsmen - I await with unbated breath.

 

[VO5]

Silence was the loud reply.



Except I've no idea what you are getting at...

There's no trick of seamanship to removing a preventor (except the elementary ones of making sure you are not going to accidentally gybe and 'don't dance around on the coach roof putting yourself in danger of falling overboard etc.). I normally put the boat onto a reach and/or over sheet the main to make sure the end of the boom is within easy reach. Apply some common sense....?

It makes me wonder what pearl of seamanship wisdom VO5 believes he has to share with the forum.

Don't be cheeky to me. It is not becoming of you. It is not clever.

Here is the explanation as follows:~

There is not usually any problem with easing the preventer, either by altering course to ease the tension on it or whatever.

The hidden problem is removing it. By removing I mean disconnecting it from the end of the boom.

You don't want to have to struggle with a knot at the end of a boom in a heaving sea if you can possibly avoid it.

You don't want to put yourself at risk of falling overboard.

You want always to do deckwork as safely as possible.

Then there is a solution.

The solution is that the preventer is fastened to the end of the boom with a slip bowline.

An ordinary bowline ( whether an inside bowline or an outside bowline) has the standing part (which is the end under tension) pointing in the opposite direction of the tail, which will be either inside the loop or outside it depending on which bowline is chosen.

Then by inserting the tail back through the knot for it to point in the direction of the standing part creates a slip bowline.

One hefty tug on the tail releases the knot and frees the preventer.

But it is no good having to go aft to do this. It is not necessary. This is particularly relevant where the traveller is abaft of the cockpit, which in the case of your own boat for example, a centre cockpit sloop, is typical. The end of your boom is very close to the split backstay and therefore very close indeed to the stern itself, a vulnerable place to stand on in a heaving sea to undo a knot.

The trick is to make the bight of the bowline long, so that the tail to release it can be reached easily without having to leave the cockpit to go aft.

Then one sharp tug on the tail and the preventer is free of the boom. This drill is particularly relevant in rough seas.

And that is all it is. It is a drill, to be practised and made a habit. It is that simple. But, for reasons that baffle me, basic seamanship concepts like these are not taught nowadays at all.

 

[dom]

And that is all it is. It is a drill, to be practised and made a habit. It is that simple. But, for reasons that baffle me, basic seamanship concepts like these are not taught nowadays at all.

Your points on safety, leaning out, etc. are certainly on point, as is your chosen approach to removing the preventer. I personally tend to permanently rig the preventer(s) when expecting a big blow, but whichever route one chooses it must certainly be drilled.

 

[Simondjuk]

So this pearl of wisdom was simply to tie a long loop in order to bring the knot inboard/forward and use a knot that's not a fight to untie? Elementary. I'd like my money back! Not that that's how I rig mine anyway.

 

[TangaraToo]

And that is all it is. It is a drill, to be practised and made a habit. It is that simple. But, for reasons that baffle me, basic seamanship concepts like these are not taught nowadays at all.

Having just completed an RYA practical course I have to disagree somewhat. The boat we were sailing had a line fixed to the end of the boom, led forward and clipped on the boom approx half way down its length with a shackle. Main preventer line led from cockpit to block at bow and back to cockpit. Rigging preventer just required attaching of line to the line already on boom with the same shackle. Removal was the reverse. Very simple. I will be installing the same system on my boat as a direct result of using this on the course.
As I have said previously on this thread, quality of the school has a huge impact on what the trainee learns.

 

[VO5]

Having just completed an RYA practical course I have to disagree somewhat. The boat we were sailing had a line fixed to the end of the boom, led forward and clipped on the boom approx half way down its length with a shackle. Main preventer line led from cockpit to block at bow and back to cockpit. Rigging preventer just required attaching of line to the line already on boom with the same shackle. Removal was the reverse. Very simple. I will be installing the same system on my boat as a direct result of using this on the course.
As I have said previously on this thread, quality of the school has a huge impact on what the trainee learns.

Yes, I concede it is an alternative. But it is not the best practice possible.
You don't want two joined shackles flogging about at head height in the cockpit when the preventer is eased.
One does not venture to seek risks of head injuries if they can at all be avoided.

 

[awol]

Yes, I concede it is an alternative. But it is not the best practice possible.
You don't want two joined shackles flogging about at head height in the cockpit when the preventer is eased.
One does not venture to seek risks of head injuries if they can at all be avoided.

Where do the 2 shackles come from at head height? "The same shackle" is at the end of a line which is half the length of the boom. It probably requires leaving the cockpit to attach but that ain't necessarily risky.

 

[VO5]

Where do the 2 shackles come from at head height? "The same shackle" is at the end of a line which is half the length of the boom. It probably requires leaving the cockpit to attach but that ain't necessarily risky.

Ah ! You are probably referring to an aft cockpit and not a centre cockpit but the principle of quick release still applies as best practice.

 

[TangaraToo]

Yes, I concede it is an alternative. But it is not the best practice possible.
You don't want two joined shackles flogging about at head height in the cockpit when the preventer is eased.
One does not venture to seek risks of head injuries if they can at all be avoided.

Single small shackle. Preventer line can be kept taught (not under load) until the shackle is in hand. No flogging involved.
What you describe is your personal preference and therefor best practice for you. This does not mean it is THE best practice any more than the method I described is. My point was this so called incompetent training system of the RYA does actually teach useful stuff.

 

[awol]

Ah ! You are probably referring to an aft cockpit and not a centre cockpit but the principle of quick release still applies as best practice.

With a suitable tail on the ring one of these new-fangled inventions might offer the speed of release you require?

 

[VO5]

Single small shackle. Preventer line can be kept taught (not under load) until the shackle is in hand. No flogging involved.
What you describe is your personal preference and therefor best practice for you. This does not mean it is THE best practice any more than the method I described is. My point was this so called incompetent training system of the RYA does actually teach useful stuff.

Yes of course. useful indeed. But the object is always to seek best and safest practice.

 

[jordanbasset]

This thread has been useful in showing there is not always one way and sometimes not even a best way of doing things. Provided you are open to new ideas you can always learn and find different solutions to problems depending on the situation. An open enquiring mind seems to me a pre-condition to ensure effective learning.