RYA - lost the plot?

[TangaraToo]

As a consequence of this he crunched his bow and buckled the bow rail in as far as the roller drum. A disaster.
Again, RYA qualified.
So I am mystified as to what is taught and learnt under the system.

Any training system is only as good as the school and the instructor providing the training.
Some years ago now I spent my weekends as a gliding instructor at one of the larger sites in the UK. Part of my responsibilities was to carry out check flights with visiting pilots if they wanted to fly club gliders. One particular day I was checking a pilot who had 50+ solo hours. His general flying off an aerotow was fine but he also wanted to fly winch launches. On his first winch launch I arrange for a gradual power failure from 300ft. He failed to react and I had to take control. Next launch I pulled the release at the same height (this makes a loud bang as the cable releases under tension) and he recovered the situation perfectly.
Talking to him after the flights he confirmed he had not received any instruction on winch power failures and as such did not even realise he had a problem. Net result he didn't get to fly solo in our gliders until he had further training.
On the flip side I recently signed up for a DS practicle course having completed the DS theory over the winter. My two fellow students were both doing Coastal Skipper. During the week I will admit to getting a little peeved that I was asked to carry out the same exercises as the other two such as sailing on/off buoys, blind nav at night etc. Constant checking of our knowledge asking who was stand on at every opportunity, what day shapes signified and what the lights would be at night. Course was brilliant. We were allowed to practice single handed berthing (my request) despite being on a very nice HR352. At the end of the week during the individual debrief the instructor informed me she had decided by end of day one that I was not DS standard and had from that point pushed me to achieve Coastal level which I was awarded. Not sure how many other schools would have done that. We were also informed at the first brief on day one that the school would not issue certificates if the standard was not met. They did not hand out DS / CS just for attending the course.
Sure, any training package can have flaws but often those flaws are insignificant when compared to how it is delivered.

 

[Babylon]

Phew! Thank you JohnMorris and UricaneJack for your well-grounded posts.

Can I make an observation on teaching? I train adults on 'zero-to-hero' 40wk long full-time fine furniture-making and design courses in my own workshop (total 1600 hours each year). A very wide variety of in-depth skills are covered: trad craft, modern powered kit, heavy machines, design/creativity, business-setup (or getting a job), marketing, customers, etc.

At the beginning, the novices need to be inducted into the 'correct' (ie reliable, safe, effective, preferred) method of doing each thing.

Later, once they've got the hang of hundreds of these little 'this-is-the-correct-way-to-do-it' things, comes the time for speed, efficiency, experiment, risk-taking, creativity, etc

This is the equivalent of the practice of 'expert seamanship' if you like - made up of lots of elements of 'good seamanship' established through repeated practice.

I'd fail as a teacher if, beyond drilling people in the essential methods, I didn't equip them to actively think for themselves, to explore and understand the mechanics and forces at play in cutting and assembling pieces of wood, to plan their making processes, to play like a child when doodling design concepts, etc. (Lots of parallels with sailing here!)

So, back to sailing: I can only assume that a good YM examiner on a small vessel carrying out a variety of exercises in a short and relatively intense period of time will very quickly establish whether a candidate really has the experience, knowledge and understanding necessary for the 'qualification'.

And a really good teacher/examiner will be someone who is always still learning themselves.

 

[dom]

Any training system is only as good as the school and the instructor providing the training.
Some years ago now I spent my weekends as a gliding instructor at one of the larger sites in the UK. Part of my responsibilities was to carry out check flights with visiting pilots if they wanted to fly club gliders. One particular day I was checking a pilot who had 50+ solo hours. His general flying off an aerotow was fine but he also wanted to fly winch launches. On his first winch launch I arrange for a gradual power failure from 300ft. He failed to react and I had to take control. Next launch I pulled the release at the same height (this makes a loud bang as the cable releases under tension) and he recovered the situation perfectly.
Talking to him after the flights he confirmed he had not received any instruction on winch power failures and as such did not even realise he had a problem. Net result he didn't get to fly solo in our gliders until he had further training.
On the flip side I recently signed up for a DS practicle course having completed the DS theory over the winter. My two fellow students were both doing Coastal Skipper. During the week I will admit to getting a little peeved that I was asked to carry out the same exercises as the other two such as sailing on/off buoys, blind nav at night etc. Constant checking of our knowledge asking who was stand on at every opportunity, what day shapes signified and what the lights would be at night. Course was brilliant. We were allowed to practice single handed berthing (my request) despite being on a very nice HR352. At the end of the week during the individual debrief the instructor informed me she had decided by end of day one that I was not DS standard and had from that point pushed me to achieve Coastal level which I was awarded. Not sure how many other schools would have done that. We were also informed at the first brief on day one that the school would not issue certificates if the standard was not met. They did not hand out DS / CS just for attending the course.
Sure, any training package can have flaws but often those flaws are insignificant when compared to how it is delivered.

Oh my we have one here, a non-submarine, non-vituperative post

A few years ago my missus took her DS before chartering a Sunsail boat (school recommended by Sunsail). There were two on the course and two passes awarded after a w/e sailing. Off she went to Turkey where she 'took command' of her little flotilla boat -- absolutely no clue what she was doing and when the wind started to blow a charming Sunsail kid apparently hopped on, anchored up, had a beer and off he went!

No damage done, but I shudder to think what might have happened if that were a glider.

Great post BTW and why not give that excellent sounding school a plug on here?

 

[JumbleDuck]

Any training system is only as good as the school and the instructor providing the training.
Some years ago now I spent my weekends as a gliding instructor at one of the larger sites in the UK. Part of my responsibilities was to carry out check flights with visiting pilots if they wanted to fly club gliders. One particular day I was checking a pilot who had 50+ solo hours. His general flying off an aerotow was fine but he also wanted to fly winch launches. On his first winch launch I arrange for a gradual power failure from 300ft. He failed to react and I had to take control. Next launch I pulled the release at the same height (this makes a loud bang as the cable releases under tension) and he recovered the situation perfectly.
Talking to him after the flights he confirmed he had not received any instruction on winch power failures and as such did not even realise he had a problem. Net result he didn't get to fly solo in our gliders until he had further training.

I once had a scary site check on the winch at a well-known club. As we got to the top of the launch the instructor was saying "pull back, pull back" even though (a) we were on the edge of pre-stall buffet (b) we were in a Puchacz and (c) they had had a fatal spin off the top of the launch in a Puchacz just weeks before.

It then took three attempts to get a safe winch launch from them; the first was absurdly fast, the second was so slow that I was never able to rotate into the climb and landed by the winch to explain how to launch wooden gliders. I was never a flying instructor, though invited to become one several times, but I was a very experienced winch driver and winch instructor.

Dunno what this has to do with the RYA, except to say that dud instructors can get through any system. Meanwhile, since there seems to be a lot of submarine willy-waving going on, here's a picture of a professionally navigated sub

 

[jordanbasset]

Some people's posts speak volumes about their character, but rather than join any slanging match (unedifying and unhelpful) I feel one or two things ought to be pointed out.

There's lots of talk of 'the right way' and implications of there being only one proper and correct way to do things when the truth is that there are often several ways to do things and sometimes they are all perfectly valid. Experienced and competent seaman know this.

Of course there are often ways NOT to do things and sometimes better and worse ways to do things but so what? I'm teaching an RYA Competent Crew course this week and although I've taught the novices how to put a line on a cleat, I've also explained some variations and why (IMHO) locking the last X under itself is more suited to dinghy sailors than mooring lines on 11 tonne boats.

I have opinions about how a preventor should be rigged but there are some variations that might be appropriate in different boats and circumstances. What is certain is there is most certainly NOT "one right way". The same principle applies to almost every aspect of seamanship. There are better and worse ways and ways you definitely shouldn't do things.

I've seen car drivers do stupid things but I don't discredit the whole of the DVLA and UK driver examining and training because I've spotted some idiots who got through the system. I also note that a professional seaman and qualified bridge watchkeeper and Master Mariner tried to argue with me that tidal stream/current would affect the direction of approach one made to pick up a MOB. (Not in some esoteric way in which wind over tide would affect wave shape...) I suspect this thread demonstrates how idiocy and pomposity have no respect for 'qualifications'.

Good post

 

[TangaraToo]

Oh my we have one here, a non-submarine, non-vituperative post

Great post BTW and why not give that excellent sounding school a plug on here?

Sorry, I obviously completely missed the point of the thread.
School was Shearwater Sailing School. No connection with them other than a very satisfied customer.

 

[dom]

Most unfair JD, that sub simply "ran into difficulties because the silt had moved."

The ensuing inquiry was more damning:
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...ata/file/27118/astute_grounding_si_report.pdf

Dunno what this has to do with the RYA, except to say that dud instructors can get through any system. Meanwhile, since there seems to be a lot of submarine willy-waving going on, here's a picture of a professionally navigated sub

 

[john_morris_uk]

Oh my we have one here, a non-submarine, non-vituperative post

A few years ago my missus took her DS before chartering a Sunsail boat (school recommended by Sunsail). There were two on the course and two passes awarded after a w/e sailing. Off she went to Turkey where she 'took command' of her little flotilla boat -- absolutely no clue what she was doing and when the wind started to blow a charming Sunsail kid apparently hopped on, anchored up, had a beer and off he went!

No damage done, but I shudder to think what might have happened if that were a glider.

Great post BTW and why not give that excellent sounding school a plug on here?

You can't do DS in a week-end. (Minimum is five days which may be split over weekends.)

 

[dom]

You can't do DS in a week-end. (Minimum is five days which may be split over weekends.)

There's no point in another round of, "Oh yes she did", "Oh no she didn't!"

What I would say is that the yachting community is a broad church: big boats, little boats, big money, small budgets, scrupulous folk and the less so. And when one mixes all that up things happen. That's life.

 

[VO5]

Your friend's failure to comprehend that steaming at full tilt into a dock might be a bad idea suggests that they lacked much more than any training could make up for.

It also seems that your prioritising pouring yourself a beer over being on deck for the arrival was a failure in judgement, especially given your prior concern over your friend's ability to skipper his vessel.

I find it implausible, both that so elementary a lapse could occur on your part and that you'd choose to fraternise with such a moron. It's a tall tale surely?

First of all " him" not "they". The culprit was the owner of the boat. The rest of us were guests.
I was off watch. The others were on deck and crowding the cockpit. He was not short of hands.
I do not fraternise with morons. I am very choosy as to who I fraternise with.

 

[VO5]

Some people's posts speak volumes about their character, but rather than join any slanging match (unedifying and unhelpful) I feel one or two things ought to be pointed out.

There's lots of talk of 'the right way' and implications of there being only one proper and correct way to do things when the truth is that there are often several ways to do things and sometimes they are all perfectly valid. Experienced and competent seaman know this.

Of course there are often ways NOT to do things and sometimes better and worse ways to do things but so what? I'm teaching an RYA Competent Crew course this week and although I've taught the novices how to put a line on a cleat, I've also explained some variations and why (IMHO) locking the last X under itself is more suited to dinghy sailors than mooring lines on 11 tonne boats.

I have opinions about how a preventor should be rigged but there are some variations that might be appropriate in different boats and circumstances. What is certain is there is most certainly NOT "one right way". The same principle applies to almost every aspect of seamanship. There are better and worse ways and ways you definitely shouldn't do things.

I've seen car drivers do stupid things but I don't discredit the whole of the DVLA and UK driver examining and training because I've spotted some idiots who got through the system. I also note that a professional seaman and qualified bridge watchkeeper and Master Mariner tried to argue with me that tidal stream/current would affect the direction of approach one made to pick up a MOB. (Not in some esoteric way in which wind over tide would affect wave shape...) I suspect this thread demonstrates how idiocy and pomposity have no respect for 'qualifications'.

I would be very interested, sincerely now, to hear your opinion, not of how to rig a preventer, but how to release it. :encouragement:

 

[GHA]

My dear Greenwich Hour Angle, you have the better of me on that. All these years and I little suspected that I could have acquired the coveted 'ICC in Wakeboarding'....

Tell me, please, does such an accolade cost substantially MORE, or rather LESS, than the common or garden RYA variety? Do they do 'graduated variants', such as Coastal, Offshore, Ocean....? I can just see it on my yottie CV now, when applying for STCW95..... 'ICC Offshore ( Wakeboarding - Barefoot/Disabled/Kneeling )'....

:encouragement:

No idea, I'm afraid.
But you're u do seem mistaken about the RYA having a monopoly on issuing the icc. Quick Google without checking wiki sources....

International Yacht Training Worldwide[FONT=&quot] (IYT Worldwide), The [/FONT]Royal Yachting Association[FONT=&quot] (RYA), and the [/FONT]British Sub-Aqua Club[FONT=&quot](BSAC) are with the authority of the [/FONT]Maritime and Coastguard Agency[FONT=&quot] (MCA) approved to issue ICCs to those who meet the mandated requirements and the competency requirements.[/FONT]

 

[GrahamM376]

I've seen car drivers do stupid things but I don't discredit the whole of the DVLA and UK driver examining and training because I've spotted some idiots who got through the system.

That thought keeps crossing my mind as well. The RYA is being knocked because some people with qualifications do some stupid things. I'm sure there are just as many, if not more, who haven't done any courses who do daft things. I don't doubt there are some bad RYA instructors around just like any sport who just do it for free sailing rather than a wish to teach but hopefully they're few and far between.

Flying & gliding are far more regulated and check flights are the norm with ability to stop someone flying even their own glider/aircraft. Even with these restrictions, I've witnessed serious and fatal accidents with very experienced pilots so am hardly surprised when boaters/drivers/climbers do the same.

 

[awol]

........ I am very choosy as to who I fraternise with.

Surely that should be "with whom I fraternise"? I am certain you received comprehensive lessons in grammar when younger. It seems a shame that you have forgotten or just ignore the rules.

 

[Babylon]

PS - I forgot to add that I still have some space in my forthcoming 2016-17 teaching year for anyone who'd like to do anything furniture-related (including below-decks cabinetmaking), courses from 2 to 40 weeks. PM me if interested!

[QUOTE=Babylon;5731535]Phew! Thank you JohnMorris and UricaneJack for your well-grounded posts.

Can I make an observation on teaching? I train adults on 'zero-to-hero' 40wk long full-time fine furniture-making and design courses in my own workshop (total 1600 hours each year). A very wide variety of in-depth skills are covered: trad craft, modern powered kit, heavy machines, design/creativity, business-setup (or getting a job), marketing, customers, etc.

At the beginning, the novices need to be inducted into the 'correct' (ie reliable, safe, effective, preferred) method of doing each thing.

Later, once they've got the hang of hundreds of these little 'this-is-the-correct-way-to-do-it' things, comes the time for speed, efficiency, experiment, risk-taking, creativity, etc

This is the equivalent of the practice of 'expert seamanship' if you like - made up of lots of elements of 'good seamanship' established through repeated practice.

I'd fail as a teacher if, beyond drilling people in the essential methods, I didn't equip them to actively think for themselves, to explore and understand the mechanics and forces at play in cutting and assembling pieces of wood, to plan their making processes, to play like a child when doodling design concepts, etc. (Lots of parallels with sailing here!)

So, back to sailing: I can only assume that a good YM examiner on a small vessel carrying out a variety of exercises in a short and relatively intense period of time will very quickly establish whether a candidate really has the experience, knowledge and understanding necessary for the 'qualification'.

And a really good teacher/examiner will be someone who is always still learning themselves.[/QUOTE]

 

[john_morris_uk]

I would be very interested, sincerely now, to hear your opinion, not of how to rig a preventer, but how to release it. :encouragement:

A seamanlike way to rig a preventor is from boom end round a suitable fitting or snatch block on the foredeck and back to the cockpit ideally to a spare winch or if non available to a cleat.

I'm sure you know how to safely ease a line on a winch or a cleat.

 

[VO5]

A seamanlike way to rig a preventor is from boom end round a suitable fitting or snatch block on the foredeck and back to the cockpit ideally to a spare winch or if non available to a cleat.

I'm sure you know how to safely ease a line on a winch or a cleat.

It does not answer my question. My question relates to how you release it, not how you rig it.

 

[Sgeir]

Yes, anything works. I just happen to have inherited a lead line with a boat and have used it for checking and setting up sounders. Don't have any tallow though

Don't carry tallow, but vaseline works if you want to check the seabed. We tend to use it in "unlisted" anchorages.

 

[john_morris_uk]

It does not answer my question. My question relates to how you release it, not how you rig it.

How you ease a loaded line lends it's self easier to demonstration than description.

If the line is back to the cockpit there shouldn't be a problem for any competent seaman.

 

[Babylon]

How you ease a loaded line lends it's self easier to demonstration than description.

If the line is back to the cockpit there shouldn't be a problem for any competent seaman.

Here's a picture: