awol
Well-Known Member
In my case, it was the crew managing the skipper to make me look as if I knew what I was doing.
RYA - lost the plot?
- Thread starter oldbilbo
- Start date
john_morris_uk
Well-Known Member
I wish!
Yesterday over the course of eight hours or more I got offered a drink of water (twice) and some Orio biscuits.
In the end I set the candidate some tidal calcs once we were alongside somewhere convenient and went across the road with the crew for a bite to eat in a cafe.
awol
Well-Known Member
I hope you failed the inhospitable swine.
D
Deleted member 36384
Guest
Shame on the skipper. I take the well being of my crew very seriously and ensure that they are well fed and watered, or at least have the opportunity to be so. It is quite easy for the crew not to eat and drink if they are novices and / or unfamiliar with the boat. A hungry (thirsty) crew is not a happy crew.
john_morris_uk
Well-Known Member
See post #253
Tranona
Well-Known Member
Your boat has an LWL over 7m, so everything you do counts.
I did not suggest that experience should be in bigger boats, but just recognised that there was a logic in that criteria, partly because of the trend to larger boats and the need to take the practical in a larger boat.
BTW in an earlier post you questioned the growth in larger boats. The fact that you even had to ask the question demonstrates how out of touch you are. For the last 20 years or so European (including UK) builders have been producing 10000+ boats over 30' on average a year. Where do you think they are going, but to be used? You may see lots of small boats where you are in the tiny little corner of Europe, but the further you go south the larger the average boat.
I can tell you that handling a 33' with a bow thruster is just as challenging as a wayward 26' long keeler - but in a different way. I own one of each.
You said earlier that the qualification is for people, not boats, so why are you now asking for a qualification for small boats? Your main beef seems to be that the experience requirements excludes very small boats without providing any evidence that this really is a constraint. The syllabus is aimed as its name implies at "offshore" and I would suggest (once again) that only a tiny number of people regularly go "offshore" in boats less than 7m LWL. There may have been more proportionally in the past, but the world has moved on.
However, if, as claimed by some the RYA is now an income maximising organisation, surely its marketing department would have identified and exploited this unmet demand! After all it has had no problem in addressing new and growing markets such as windsurfers, PWC's and RIBs and expanding training opportunities for professional crews.
Tranona
Well-Known Member
I am not sure where our disagreement is as you have not articulated what is wrong with the RYA and its qualifications, nor what you would like to see in its place.
They are "qualifications". Many bodies (including all our universities and professional bodies) offer qualifications that do not fit within the qca framework. Their authority for doing this comes from a variety of sources, but just like the RYA they set their own syllabus, levels and standards. The RYA gets its authority from the MCA and the qualifications (in their commercial form) are accepted as qualifying for specific controlled occupations.
Just to clarify, universities get their authority from Parliament and their framework from the QAA, not the qca. Professional bodies such as the ACCA where I was an examiner for many years, gets it from its charter, and are self governing, just like the RYA. Equally like the RYA many professional qualifications are prerequisites for certain controlled occupations.
So the distinction you are trying to draw between qualifications and certification is false.
Perhaps it would help this discussion if you laid out what you think is wrong with the qualifications and how you think they should be organised.
VO5
Well-Known Member
I ask because I am curious. And I am curious because I like to be as fully informed as possible. I will never give up learning.
But you have answered your own question in two parts: ~
(a) Because it was a coded boat it carried a lead line in its inventory.
and
(b) That one of them, a professional yacht crew, had never heard of one.
I find that shocking, really amazing.
Then therefore, one would assume that yachts that are not coded do not necessarily carry one, but in my view they should.
In reply to your last comment "what other way is there to keep your boat safe in confined waters", there are five caveats the seaman should be mindful of, and they are:
(a) Where there is a swell running, wherever the swell suddenly increases in height indicates shallower depth.
(b) Where again there is a swell running, and the swell is interrupted and develops into waves that break, indicates significant shallowing that may be critical.
(c) By day, change in the colour of the water will indicate change in depth or the presence of sea grass / and or / possible uncharted rock formation whereas before the bottom was sand, but of course not applicable in muddy waters as found for example in estuaries, or near outfalls or if film is present on the surface.
(d) Where there are potential overfalls and tide rips.
(e) In regions where habitually eddies are formed.
And since you ask, and in fog and in very shallow water, and disregarding all the electronic gizmos, the hand line is very useful in providing a line of soundings in ascertaining the configuration of the bottom and to confirm that you really are where you may think you are. Very useful at night, too.
And finally, in ascertaining the quality of the bottom when seeking an anchorage where the chart does not describe the quality of the said bottom by charging the lead itself with tallow etc., in a time honoured and seamanlike fashion.
My question now is:
Are these rock bottom basic seamanship skills not taught nowadays, and if not, why not ?
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VO5
Well-Known Member
All I am going to say is that oldbilbo cannily detects some flaws but is so far unable to pinpoint what the flaws might be, the underlying causes and reasons that drive them, but detect the flaws he certainly does. I am not a boat rocker, but I sit here and find it hard to supress a giggle.
But all of it is obvious. I mean to say, it is staring you in the face, screaming at you it is....... :encouragement:
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D
Deleted member 36384
Guest
It would be useful if you could just write down what it is that is screaming out, I for one would be interested to read your observations.
shaunksb
Well-Known Member
At night??
Ohh c'mon this thread is just getting silly now.
Are we supposed to lick the tallow to ascertain the geological make up of the sea bed?
Aarrgh me hearties, it tastes of copper, we must be in North Wales.
I think I'll stick to my depth sounder thanks
With a backlight...
________________________
john_morris_uk
Well-Known Member
I ask because I am curious. And I am curious because I like to be as fully informed as possible. I will never give up learning.
But you have answered your own question in two parts: ~
(a) Because it was a coded boat it carried a lead line in its inventory.
and
(b) That one of them, a professional yacht crew, had never heard of one.
I find that shocking, really amazing.
Then therefore, one would assume that yachts that are not coded do not necessarily carry one, but in my view they should.
In reply to your last comment "what other way is there to keep your boat safe in confined waters", there are five caveats the seaman should be mindful of, and they are:
(a) Where there is a swell running, wherever the swell suddenly increases in height indicates shallower depth.
(b) Where again there is a swell running, and the swell is interrupted and develops into waves that break, indicates significant shallowing that may be critical.
(c) By day, change in the colour of the water will indicate change in depth or the presence of sea grass / and or / possible uncharted rock formation whereas before the bottom was sand, but of course not applicable in muddy waters as found for example in estuaries, or near outfalls or if film is present on the surface.
(d) Where there are potential overfalls and tide rips.
(e) In regions where habitually eddies are formed.
And since you ask, and in fog and in very shallow water, and disregarding all the electronic gizmos, the hand line is very useful in providing a line of soundings in ascertaining the configuration of the bottom and to confirm that you really are where you may think you are. Very useful at night, too.
And finally, in ascertaining the quality of the bottom when seeking an anchorage where the chart does not describe the quality of the said bottom by charging the lead itself with tallow etc., in a time honoured and seamanlike fashion.
My question now is:
Are these rock bottom basic seamanship skills not taught nowadays, and if not, why not ?
I would agree with all of those but I'm not sure in what context you mean 'taught'. Most of us acquire our seamanship by absorbing the knowledge and insights of those we sail with. In a five day RYA course there's only so much you can teach. You hope the students will have enough to keep themselves safe and go away and sail their boats and carry on learning and talking. The yacht club used to be one place where wisdom and tips were passed on but we now also have forums. (But just like the yacht club bar, you have to apply some filters... )
My own boat isn't coded but I have a lead line. I've often had to resort to a spanner on some string to check the echo sounder on boats I've stepped on board with no knowledge of what the offset is set to, but so what.
Tranona
Well-Known Member
Agree. would appreciate a logical well argued explanation with evidence from either poster.
However, suspect I will have to wait for a long time.
doug748
Well-Known Member
It has rambled a bit.
In terms of the original question, JumbleDuck has treated us to a rare shaft of clarity:
We could all have been more proud if they had taken the tougher, and in some ways opposite, decision and got rid of the Yachtmaster fudge. It's difficult to blame them though they ply their business in a tough commercial world.
In terms of the original question, JumbleDuck has treated us to a rare shaft of clarity:
We could all have been more proud if they had taken the tougher, and in some ways opposite, decision and got rid of the Yachtmaster fudge. It's difficult to blame them though they ply their business in a tough commercial world.
VO5
Well-Known Member
Taught ?
Well, it is very simple. No one is born knowing. Therefore knowledge is passed on. It is more effective to pass on knowledge in a properly structured fashion than leaving people to find out for themselves through trial and error or through having to filter information gleaned at the club bar.
The failing is not only that five days is not enough but also the subsequent steps are staggered, leaving gaps.
For Competent Crew, for example, 5 days are allowed, for example. Candidates are expected to memorise everything and acquire working knowledge within that very short time. For just the standing and running rigging and sails section it takes three days for everything to be explained and understood (and repeated subsequently by the student to show it is so) and all questions asked and answers given.
It may sound tedious to some, but it is necessary. This leaves just two days for the rest. Not enough time. Not good enough and worse as we go up the ladder, because what happens is that people walk away with the impression that if the have the cert they are what the cert says. Not so. Absolutely not.
GrahamM376
Well-Known Member
What do you use to set the depth sounder up to make sure it's accurate? I use a lead line.
VO5
Well-Known Member
Yes you do that, until it fails for whatever reason. Stick to your depth sounder and continue to stick your head in the sand like the ostrich does. Don't learn anything. Disregard the experience of all who have gone before you. Don't have a Plan B, ever. It is common sense to always have a Plan B but there again common sense does not seem to be that common.
VO5
Well-Known Member
Of course you would have to wait a long time, because the whole exercise is nowadays blatantly commercially driven.
It is not practicable to deliver more quality and quantity for the same price, is it ?
Babylon
Well-Known Member
I've now read the whole of this thread - and revisited the RYA requirements for YM Offshore (which would be my own next step if I ever get round to it, albeit not in my own 27ft LOA yacht), and I don't think the RYA has lost the plot - notwithstanding that they're a commercial organisation with a multiplicity of imperatives.
At a blind guess my 5000+ miles are composed of about 1500 single-handed. Some of the remainder are as crew or mate on larger yachts, but most of it has been as skipper with crew made up of family and friends, the vast majority of whom had never sailed before.
Managing and teaching the basics of safe crewing to these many unskilled people has increased my own skills considerably - in some cases effectively single-handing whilst caring for vulnerable passengers. Sailing 1500 odd miles solo has increased my skills. Sailing with experienced crew and for experienced skippers on other boats has increased my skills. Owning and upgrading a yacht over nine years has also increased my skills.
Contrast this, say, to a fast-track youngster whose sailing has only ever been on a 34-38ft modern training-school yacht with other keen youngsters etc, but who has also met the milage and other requirements.
I'm happy for both of us to be called Yachtmaster (if I pass of course), and I wouldn't worry in the slightest however the 'award' is characterised, whether 'qualification' or 'certification'. He or she will know and have experienced things I haven't and vice-versa, but we will both have been assessed to have met a certain standard of understanding and ability.
That's it. If there are some aspects of the system that people disagree with, then they can scratch that itch all they like. But for the vast majority of people who have or aspire to have the YM 'ticket' the RYA system works. It doesn't make them nice or horrible people to sail with, nor can one put blind faith in them, but - in the absence of anything else - it provides an adequate benchmark against one can assess their experience and ability.
At a blind guess my 5000+ miles are composed of about 1500 single-handed. Some of the remainder are as crew or mate on larger yachts, but most of it has been as skipper with crew made up of family and friends, the vast majority of whom had never sailed before.
Managing and teaching the basics of safe crewing to these many unskilled people has increased my own skills considerably - in some cases effectively single-handing whilst caring for vulnerable passengers. Sailing 1500 odd miles solo has increased my skills. Sailing with experienced crew and for experienced skippers on other boats has increased my skills. Owning and upgrading a yacht over nine years has also increased my skills.
Contrast this, say, to a fast-track youngster whose sailing has only ever been on a 34-38ft modern training-school yacht with other keen youngsters etc, but who has also met the milage and other requirements.
I'm happy for both of us to be called Yachtmaster (if I pass of course), and I wouldn't worry in the slightest however the 'award' is characterised, whether 'qualification' or 'certification'. He or she will know and have experienced things I haven't and vice-versa, but we will both have been assessed to have met a certain standard of understanding and ability.
That's it. If there are some aspects of the system that people disagree with, then they can scratch that itch all they like. But for the vast majority of people who have or aspire to have the YM 'ticket' the RYA system works. It doesn't make them nice or horrible people to sail with, nor can one put blind faith in them, but - in the absence of anything else - it provides an adequate benchmark against one can assess their experience and ability.
Babylon
Well-Known Member
POSTSCRIPT: I have a huge regard for all the points VO5 makes. For me, YM would be the beginning from that point forward - not the end - of my learning.
As I pointed out much earlier in this thread, gaining each step in the 'RYA Ladder' has successfully provided me with the confidence to undertake sailing ambitions that I'd have been too frightened to even consider if the system didn't exist in the first place.
On that basis alone - to answer Old Bilbo's original question - the RYA haven't lost the plot.
As I pointed out much earlier in this thread, gaining each step in the 'RYA Ladder' has successfully provided me with the confidence to undertake sailing ambitions that I'd have been too frightened to even consider if the system didn't exist in the first place.
On that basis alone - to answer Old Bilbo's original question - the RYA haven't lost the plot.
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