GrahamM376
Well-Known Member
+1
Maybe he's so old and infirm that a fairly short (only 60nm) qualifying passage single handed is now beyond his capabilities?
RYA - lost the plot?
- Thread starter oldbilbo
- Start date
+1
Maybe he's so old and infirm that a fairly short (only 60nm) qualifying passage single handed is now beyond his capabilities?
JumbleDuck
Well-Known Member
Perhaps. And the exam will sort out whether the right knowledge has been gained, right? The exam which, until last year you could take in a 7m LOA (not LWL) boat ...
I couldn't agree more.
There is no point in "experience" on it's own. It has to be experience in something to be relevant. I am having some difficulty in understanding what sort of experience, if not in sailing and seamanship, you think should be prerequisites for YachtmasterTM.
I don't, but it seems the logical corollary of the insistance the (a) crew management is a crucial part of the YachmasterTM requirements and that (b) prior experience should align with the those requirements.
You want people to get their experience in larger boats since YM covers larger boats; surely on that basis the experience should also require crew since YM covers crewed boats?
Simondjuk
Well-Known Member
Yes, amazing. For the less gifted however, a smaller step may prove easier to handle and safer in practice.
You're either able to grasp my point or you're not.
JumbleDuck
Well-Known Member
Thanks. It's not something I have any plans to do because (a) I don't need it and (b) I would resent the costs involved in acquiring the relevant experience in a boat the RYA deem suitably large. Never say never, of course, but it's not looking likely. I'm probably going to do Powerboat Level 2 this year or next, though.
jamie N
Well-Known Member
I almost never sail with another person on my Folkboat, and thus she's fairly well set-up for solo sailing. I was looking at a 42' 'something or other' yesterday, and thinking that it would take away from my enjoyment perhaps if I owned her, as I'd not be able to single hand her anything like as readily, or safely because of the potential power within the rig; one small mechanical snafu could ruin your day. Could this be a reason towards a theory of single handers having fewer incidents, as they tend to sail smaller craft? It would be good to see the incident stats.
capnsensible
Well-Known Member
Sure. The links may help to explain some of the points this thread has raised.
Enjoy your Power course, its still great 'messing about' in ribs and dinghies and also calls for concentration and skill. :encouragement:
Simondjuk
Well-Known Member
I'm not about to go round in silly circles on the points already covered as is your want, so will leave those I've already responded to as answered and you can chose to pick between the lines to suit your agenda if it so pleases you.
On the one unanswered point relating to crewing, you say that you don't when it seems that you do, which is odd. Anyway, crew, or people, management is less learned by sailing and more by interacting with other humans in general. I've no doubt, no I know, that people who have sailed extensively with large crews can be utterly useless at a managing them and those who have never sailed with crew before can be great at it at the first shot. The former are less able managers the latter good ones. Since the ability, or lack of, seems largely unrelated to sailing in particular tends to indicate that the RYA have it about right in not specifying that crew are a requirement of the qualifying miles.
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laika
Well-Known Member
+1, and to your previous post. I was going to reply to jumbleduck earlier but was conscious that this has drifted off original topic onto a well trodden path.
The issue always seems to be that people are assuming that Yachtmaster is a certificate of oldsaltydogness But it *isn't* an oldsaltydogness certificate, it's a certificate of competence for a certain type of boat: the type of boat which gets chartered in the mass market, is used by sea schools and is used most in commercial yachting. Those are mostly over 10m. One of the main purposes of a certificate is to allow others to do due diligence by proxy on someone when doing things like hiring to them or employing them. The yachmaster seems to be catering for the market for certification in the kinds of things people need a certificate for.
Didn't jumbleduck say that he didn't want a certificate if one wasn't required? So presumably not target market...
Perhaps there's a need for a separate oldsaltyseadogness certificate which fulfils the requirements of posters unhappy with the current yachtmaster? Qualifying miles are divided by (length of vessel + number of crew) except in the case of square or gaff rigs where it's multiplied. Wood counts triple. Examiners should note suitability of clothing (Guy Cotton good, Musto automatic fail) and appearance (Beards good unless hipster, in which case fail). No oldsaltyseadogness schools exist: it's either in the blood or it isn't. It's impossible to gain an oldsaltyseadogness certificate in covent garden. It just cannot happen. Because the closest a serious oldsaltyseadogness candidate will ever come to covent garden is maybe a trip to Arthur Beale, once, in the 60s. And that was enough. A nice cosy quayside bar is the appropriate place for the exam because oldsaltyseadogness examiners can instantly spot one of their own in such an environment and after all, it's all just common sense.
I don't believe he does: It was a rhetorical device. It was in response to my suggestion that crew management was an element of of yachtmaster certification. Jumbleduck is comparing excluding small boat experience with excluding single handed experience, both of which he perceives as harder than crewed/big boat experience. The argument is that he thinks if it would be silly to exclude single handed experience (which lacks crew management) then it is equally silly to exclude small boat experience (which lacks elements of bigger boat manoeuvring). It's a fair comparison. But maybe the "skippered passages" part of the requirement *should* require a crew....
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JumbleDuck
Well-Known Member
It looks fun and interesting and will allow me to do some occasional safety boatery.
More response than answer, I fear, but of course it's your choice.
What do I say, that I don't crew for people or that I don't have crew? I can't remember saying either, but if it's worrying you (a) I have sailed almost entirely on my own boats since I was 21, which I think is a weakness because I have very little idea of how other people do things and (b) at the moment I sail mostly with a crew member who, although extremely keen, is still below the age of criminal responsibility and so effectively I sail single handed.
That is certainly one target market, but the commercial certification for considerably larger boats seems to be a major driver as well.
Not quite. There would be two reasons for me to get one: need and want. I don't need one because I don't charter and we aren't yet regulated. I don't want enough to bear the expense involved in acquiring 2,500 sea miles in a boat I don't own.
I do have, if you are interested, a very old Day Skipper theory certificate and an almost as old Coastal Skipper/Yachtmaster theory certificate, both of which I acquired at night school and both of which were really interesting and worthwhile. I don't and didn't actually "need" either of them.
I think it's a shame that there is no practical qualification aimed at people with sub-30' boats, and I am a little puzzled to find that that mild regret arouses such passionate opposition.
Indeed. Tranona has suggested that experience should be in larger boats because they are more likely to go offshore; in that case why not simply specify that the experience has to be offshore? Similarly, if larger boats should be required because they have larger crews (that claim has been made before), why not specify crews?
Not quite. I think some aspects of seamanship are harder in smaller boats, mainly around passage planning. Even in my diminutive 26-footer I can go places significantly more easily than I could in my previous 21-footer. On the other hand, I am sure some things are harder in bigger boats, like selecting and using anchorages. Entering harbours may or may not be harder - I would be mildly interested to give someone whose experience was all in 35 footers with fin keel and bow thruster and see how they got on getting my 26' long keeler into and out of tight berths.
I think it's a shame that experience gained in smaller boats is not recognised and, as I have said, it would seem quite sensible to me if YachtmasterTM Coastal was open to smaller boats while YachtmasterTM Ocean was restricted to bigger ones.
Perhaps the lack of training and qualifications for smaller boats isn't a significant issue, but it certainly will be if qualifications ever become mandatory.
Edit: Jeepers, what a screed. Sorry.
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alant
Well-Known Member
alant
Well-Known Member
Think you forgot your irony emicom.
GrahamM376
Well-Known Member
It would be interesting to hear from an examiner's point of view where candidates failures happen mostly.
My YM exam was spread over a weekend as there were 3 candidates taking it. Sailing short handed, my main weakness was delegating as I wasn't used to being mob handed and the examiner commented on this on the first day - "you're doing too much yourself". OTOH the two other candidates whose experience was mainly as racing crew were far quicker and better at sail trimming (always wanted to go fast) but, with minimum qualifying hours as skipper were less confident with pilotage and decision making. We all scraped through.
My YM exam was spread over a weekend as there were 3 candidates taking it. Sailing short handed, my main weakness was delegating as I wasn't used to being mob handed and the examiner commented on this on the first day - "you're doing too much yourself". OTOH the two other candidates whose experience was mainly as racing crew were far quicker and better at sail trimming (always wanted to go fast) but, with minimum qualifying hours as skipper were less confident with pilotage and decision making. We all scraped through.
john_morris_uk
Well-Known Member
There's no easy answer to why people fail.
I failed a candidate yesterday. He was a bit ropey with his tides (standard and secondary ports) a bit ropey on IRPCS and chart work but the deciding factor was that he went straight across a 'new island' I'd added to the chart and asked him to take the boat round in the dark. I asked him why he didn't check the depth and he said the repeater on the fly bridge wasn't working so he didn't see how he could. (The echo sounder inside was working perfectly.)
In recent months I've had to fail people for boat handling (ended pinned up against another boat when turning round amongst other things) and for not being able to calculate a tidal height. It's usually several things (you can forgive the odd mistake through nerves and no one is perfect). One candidate suggested that he'd seek shelter in a bay completely exposed to the F6/7 that was imminent. (I can't remember ever failing someone on their passage planning before.)
In the fail report we have to be specific and precise. 'The candidate was asked to take the boat to Lymington but somehow we ended up in Cowes....' Hasn't happened yet but it might.
I failed a candidate yesterday. He was a bit ropey with his tides (standard and secondary ports) a bit ropey on IRPCS and chart work but the deciding factor was that he went straight across a 'new island' I'd added to the chart and asked him to take the boat round in the dark. I asked him why he didn't check the depth and he said the repeater on the fly bridge wasn't working so he didn't see how he could. (The echo sounder inside was working perfectly.)
In recent months I've had to fail people for boat handling (ended pinned up against another boat when turning round amongst other things) and for not being able to calculate a tidal height. It's usually several things (you can forgive the odd mistake through nerves and no one is perfect). One candidate suggested that he'd seek shelter in a bay completely exposed to the F6/7 that was imminent. (I can't remember ever failing someone on their passage planning before.)
In the fail report we have to be specific and precise. 'The candidate was asked to take the boat to Lymington but somehow we ended up in Cowes....' Hasn't happened yet but it might.
VO5
Well-Known Member
And just out of curiosity...is proficiency with the hand lead still required or has it been abolished as well ?
john_morris_uk
Well-Known Member
Just out of curiosity I wonder why you ask.
As it happens, I asked my Day Skipper students this last week how accurate the echo sounder was and what offset (if any) it had. Like all coded boats, there was a lead line so we got it out to compare readings. They were stunned to find the water was 1.4 metres deeper than the echo sounder said it was. One of them (a professional yacht crew) had never heard of a lead line, let alone seen one or used one.
PS, the reason the candidate should have had a look at the depth was that the leg of the pilotage exercise he was executing followed a beach and he would have ensured he was in the right place by keeping the depth more or less constant.
PPS. What other way is there to keep your boat safe when proceeding in confined waters.
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Sandy Bottom
Well-Known Member
john_morris_uk
Well-Known Member
When they are standing on a rock or a sandbar?
Actually it's one of my favourite bargemans (apocryphal?) lines.
"Is that seagull walking or swimming?"
"Walking"
"Ready about..."
capnsensible
Well-Known Member
Or a crabs willy.
Mebbe the good old International Certificate of Competence is the thing for smaller boat owners to aim at?
awol
Well-Known Member
I am confused by the crew management aspect of the YM. The RYA prescribe a crew of 2* for the exam, even on a 23.99m leviathon. As one of these will be devoted to tea making to keep the examiner happy, how much management is actually required?
*The boat used must be between 7m and 24m waterline length and be in sound, seaworthy condition, equipped to the standard set out in the RYA Boat Safety Handbook 2nd Edition (code G103). The boat must be equipped with a full up to date set of charts and navigational publications along with working instruments and either plotter or GPS. In addition to the candidate there should be two crew on board as the examiner will not take part in the management of the boat during the exam.
*The boat used must be between 7m and 24m waterline length and be in sound, seaworthy condition, equipped to the standard set out in the RYA Boat Safety Handbook 2nd Edition (code G103). The boat must be equipped with a full up to date set of charts and navigational publications along with working instruments and either plotter or GPS. In addition to the candidate there should be two crew on board as the examiner will not take part in the management of the boat during the exam.
D
Deleted member 36384
Guest
Never underestimate the importance of managing tea making at appropriate times. It is a safety critical task, the timing of which needs to be precise and relevant to prevent catastrophe. The other crew member will be engaged in tactics that make his skipper (under examination) look proficient and organised. With a slight raise of the eyebrow, or twitch of the little finger from the skipper, the tea making crew announces 'more tea vicar', thus diverting the examiner for that split second as the skipper regains poise and control.