Russki captains ...

Re: Estonia ...

this thread wasn't abt russians per se but whether the educational standards in russian marine colleges are adequate. Both the capts of Vespucci and Estomia were russian trained (the former was Russian, the latter Estomian) and both carried on regardless. You're winding yourself up ....
 
Re: Never mind Russkis; worry about Romanians

Interesting that?
He was nicked in New Holland and found 4x over the limit but MCA are saying he ran aground on the Goodwins!

Questions:
1. If he ran aground on the Goodwins and then sailed on to NH how much drink did he have in him when he hit the sands?

2. How can MCA prove he wa drunk whilst on the sands - he may well have had a few stiff ones after he hit the sands?
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Peter.
 
It happens in the best regulated families...

I think he was nicked for being drunk in charge of a vessel at New Holland, and the meandering across the Goodwins was what attracted attention to his vessel in the first place.

I used to work under a Scots Master Mariner who was an outstandingly good seaman. He recalled having been third mate on a British whale factory ship, the "Southern Harvester", which likewise parked herself on the Goodwins, for a few hours, on passage from South Georgia, because he was fast asleep and every other officer aboard was three sheets to the wind.

The entire crew was of course British.

The only reason why this chap holds the record for the amount of booze in his bloodstream is that the MCA have not been breathalysing for very long.

I worked for a company which actually fitted it ships with a luboil sample carrier which took two Gordon's Gin bottles - in the sure and certain knowledge that an ample supply would always be available!
 
An attempt at a serious answer.

I have no direct experience of Russian officer training, but I know a lot about Chinese officer training, which was based on Russian systems, and I have worked at a well-regarded training centre (not in China) handling many nationalities, including British and Russian.

The EDUCATIONAL standards in Russian training colleges are high. Almost certainly higher than in Britain, in fact.

However, the "planned economies", like the USA in fact, had a different approach to officer training, regarding it as an academic qualification, over 3 or 4 years, to be followed by sea time, whereas the British, Irish, Australian, New Zealand, Indian and Pakistani approach has always been more of a sandwich course effort.

Very few people doubt that the British-type course works better in practice.

Absolutely any nationality of officer can behave like a prat and absolutely any nationality of officer can get, and does get, "leaned on" by "the office" to cut corners, press on when he should not, etc.

Does not happen in all companies but it does in many.
 
Thank you Mirelle ...

To add to my comment ... the PA to the Director of St. Petersburg Marine Academy .... known as the Markarov Academy ..... they run the STS Mir and Kruzenstern .... a young lady by the name of Tatiana Lepanina was a close friend ... while I lived there working for Intertek ....
The Russian system was based on a number of Academy's ... St. P, Black Sea, Liepaja etc. and they had extremely strict regimes. The training was literally military even though main was for Merchant. You have to also remember that they had a very loose border between Merchant and Military ... Merchant ships were geared in case of war to serve military needs ...

As Mirelle says - there are idiots in every nationality. The British system has stood the test of time albeit with some daft periods of Combined Tickets etc. - but soon weeded out.

My complaint is the general perception with the original post that Russian Seaman are no good ... that is how its perception is - and in fact is unfair.
 
Re: Estonia ... Hey Tome .... plus ...

Registered Marine Surveyor with Saudi Govt.

Life moves on from shoot lines Tome ... some of us move on and develop.

Russian Sea and Rivers Assoc - If you knew anything about the Volga River and the Cargo Traffic on it - you would then understand that your flippancy about such Assoc. mocks a very serious and important maritime operation.

I'm not trying to write a resume here - blimey far from it as I no longer need to impress anyone - being my own boss and owning my own marine Inspection biz ... but thought you need some more "bait" and "fuel" for your games ...
But of course ... I was surprised that it took so long for a remark ... your slipping ....
 
Cosiness amongst surveyors...

...was only encountered by me amongst cargo surveyors in Japanese ports, where it was most definitely the practice to meet up round the back of the bike shed, agree the depreciation and agree on whose turn it was to take the rap.

Otherwise, two marine surveyors are more likely to produce three opinions.
 
Re: Cosiness amongst surveyors... .... sometimes

The problem here is that often if the surveyors produce different cargo figures - the disputes between crago interests can exceed financially the possible loss if they compromised. Second I know many terminals that have resident Survey Co. and they inform "visiting" surveyors that they will not tolerate any differences in cargo figures. It is then the duty and careful skill of the visiting Surveyors to discuss and get what they want with the residents.
In all cases the ships figures are reference only and Chief Officer can stamp his feet as much as he likes ... but it will be the Surveyor who has last word after ship has left.
In the event of numerous surveyors - that is usually Dry-cargo or Bulk cargo ... petroleum is normally a single survey company jointly appointed. The findings of that Survey being binding on all parties.

We have to remember that Ships Charter rates are small fry when it comes to Cargo values, Demurrage claims etc. and a Surveyors job is to look after his client.... in some cases that can mean cut and run to minimise losses. But the call will only be made after a call to the client.
My company we carry out not only Inspections - but also Superintendency - which brings in even stronger powers for the Surveyor ... he can stop all operations at any time he has reason to. He can dictate - which normal Inspections cannot. He usually has the power to make a decision without call to client - but you better be sure of your ground !! We conduct quite a few Superintendent jobs - overseeing competitor Inspection Co's - now that is a satisfying job ... especially when you catch them "easing a number" .....

A subject in its own right ......
 
Re: Cosiness amongst surveyors... .... sometimes

Nigel, there's really no reason for me to wind you up as you do such a good job of it for yourself!

[ QUOTE ]
duty and careful skill of the visiting Surveyors to discuss and get what they want with the residents

[/ QUOTE ]
But you must admit it's a little cozy, no? Just a wee tiny bit?
 
Cosy ????

If you had a few mill invested in a cargo - do you want some pr*t holding it all up ?????

Cosy no - practical yes.

World of difference ...
 
Re: Cosiness amongst surveyors... .... sometimes

Sorry top go off the subject but you mentioned a subject that kkeps cropping up.

Under what circumstances is Demurrage paid ,and who decides the amount?In particular would a port be liable if a ship was neaped by the tide cutting?
 
Demurrage ...

Can lead to lengthy claims and counter claims by all parties all wriggling and squirming ...

Who pays often comes down to who runs out of excuses !!

As to vessel grounding - too many possibles ... I used to sail on Acid Tankers that used to ground in small harbour in Balfast Loch during discharge.

I'm not btrying to duck out of answering this one - but as other shipping people on here will agree - there are too many angles to it and needs very careful study of each case ... a wrong word can actually turn a claim over ...
 
Re: Demurrage ...

I'm sure it is difficult and controversial

But in simple laymans terms what is it

I sit like ullage and spillage so dear to every landlords heart

Or is it related to bottomry?

Whatever that may be
 
Re: Demurrage ...

demurrage : if a ship is delayed it can claim compensation from the company that causes its delay.the compensation is called demurrage.
 
twit .... his first question was ?

Thank you for the wise crack .... seems you haven't lost your talent.

His first question involved a situation that was incomplete and could not be answered ... Second question could in one short answer as another did.

Anyway ... the proper answer to "What is Demurrage ?" is :>

Demurrage A Charterer is given a specific time for loading and/or unloading a ship which is called laydays. Beyond the stipulated time, demurrage will take place. If she will be kept in port then she will be entitled to claim damage for detention... pls refer laytime

That is direct from the Industry Standards ....

So as you see it is not so cut and dried ... there are a lot of other considerations such as time for documents, awaiting stores, terminal readiness, vessel readiness, information declared before or not ... Anyway you have the definition now ... await your next remark.
 
Whoops ... ????

You sure that's what they said ???

Not exactly what I've heard when its happened .... more like .................

"Oh S**T ..... who put that f******r there ????"
 
Demurrage, spelled \"demorage\" in 1601, has made many a lawyer rich

There are expensive fat books written about this. And a capable and enterprising Master can make a lot of money for his owners if he gets it right.

Now, in broad principle there are three sorts of charter party for a ship

1. Bareboat (ship only, no crew, charterer responsible for maintenance, insurance, etc, known in aviation as a dry lease)

2. Time charter (ship plus crew, owner responsible for maintenance, insurance, etc, charterer pays US$ "x" per day and pro rata and pays for fuel, compulsory pilots, port dues, etc and some or all cargo claims.

3. Voyage charter. The charterer pays the owner US$"x" per ton of cargo carried from A to B. The charterer has "y" days in which to load and discharge the cargo - these days are called "laytime" and in the tanker trade the charterer usually has three days "reversible" laytime i.e. he has 72 hours to load and unload the ship. In dry cargo the laytime us commonly longer as loading and discharging takes more time (tankers are designed to pump all the cargo out in 24 hours).

Laytime starts from the arrival of the ship at the loading port or the loading berth (depending on the charter - and yes, there is a huge body of law on when a ship can be said to have "arrived" !)

If the charterer takes longer than the allowed laytime to load and/or discharge the ship, he must pay the owner "demurrage", which is an agreed rate of liquidated damages for the detention of the vessel, i.e. US$"z" per day.

The reasons for the delay may include bad weather, unsafe berth, port congestion, failure of the cargo to get to the berth,. labour disputes, shortage of barges, you name it and it has happened.

Shipping people can get very erudite about these things, eg a telex I recieved almost twenty years ago from a Korean oil company who had chartered a VLCC owned by my company:

"Please tell your Captain that we too have read the "Laura Prima"!"

...which being translated meant, "Yes we know the discharge port is closed due to a typhoon and he does not need to send us a weather fax every hour" - the allusion being to a well known case concerning demurrage under the Exxonvoy charter. You will notice that the Master, the Korean charterers and the owners had all read the case!

The Honourable Company of Merchants Trading to the East Indies was formed in 1601, and in that very year they featured in a "demorage" case for taking too long to load in the Thames.
 
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