Running the engine when using an anchor winch

[CAPTAIN FANTASTIC]

I always drop the sails and motor when approaching the place to drop the anchor and therefore the engine is on when operating the windlass. I always start the engine when ready to leave and lifting the anchor using the windlass.

I have the engine on for three reasons: to be ready in case I drift; motoring to dig/dislodge the anchor; and to assist the batteries when operating the windlass.

 

[GHA]

. After all it’s extremely poor seamanship to use the windlass to pull the boat up to the anchor.

This comes up now and again - why is it 'extremely poor seamanship'?
In big winds certainly the windlass could well be working harder than it should but that's not exactly a daily event. How does the windlass know if it's taking some tension edging the boat forwards or lifting a load of chain and hook?

And almost always I'll have the engine on raising or lowering, just in case a quick escape route is needed if it all goes wrong around other boats under sail.

 

[jwilson]

I regularly use the windlass without engine running because the boat is ashore. At my age it's much easier to use windlass to drop anchor and chain to ground once lifted ashore, and retrieve it before relaunch. Also sometimes relead halyard to windlass drum to hoist someone up mast.

If afloat though I will normally have engine running, perks up windlass motor speed a bit. Typical windlass use only takes 1-2 AH out of batteries over a minute or two.

 

[vyv_cox]

This comes up now and again - why is it 'extremely poor seamanship'?
In big winds certainly the windlass could well be working harder than it should but that's not exactly a daily event. How does the windlass know if it's taking some tension edging the boat forwards or lifting a load of chain and hook?

Quite right. When berthed stern-to on anchor it is inevitably the boats that motor forward before hauling their anchor that foul somebody else's. By far the best way to.leave the berth is to let go the warps to the quay first. The weight of the chain falling starts the boat moving forwards, upon which begin hauling the chain in on the windlass. The effort required is very small and the boat finishes up vertically above the anchor with little chance of it catching another chain. Only after the anchor is off the bottom do I put the engine in gear.

Incidentally, every ferry in Greece uses exactly the same technique.

We use pretty much the same technique when free anchoring , only motoring briefly in stronger winds to start the boat moving.

 

[Graham376]

How uncivilised! its the weekend. Jonathan

Very uncivilised, I gave it up 20 years ago

 

[vyv_cox]

On the original question, I will use the windlass without the engine for brief periods, such as adjusting chain tension when stern-to, fitting and recovering the snubber letting out more chain, etc. Not for more than that although I feel sure all the kit would cope.

We motor our anchor down because Jill cannot tighten the clutch sufficiently on our vertical windlass. We find no difficulty at all in placing the anchor on sandy patches, which is a way of life in the Aegean.

 

[john_morris_uk]

This comes up now and again - why is it 'extremely poor seamanship'?
In big winds certainly the windlass could well be working harder than it should but that's not exactly a daily event. How does the windlass know if it's taking some tension edging the boat forwards or lifting a load of chain and hook?

And almost always I'll have the engine on raising or lowering, just in case a quick escape route is needed if it all goes wrong around other boats under sail.

Your windlass and you do what you like. You’d never find a ship lifting their anchor without nudging the ship forward on main engines.
Why do you think it’s good practice on a yacht?

Our windlass is rated to pull the anchor and entire chain vertically out of the sea. (Imagine worst case scenario where you accidentally let go in very deep water.) However the boat weighs 14 tonnes. Why should I ask the windlass to start moving a load it’s not designed for?
Just because it will do it, doesn’t make it a recommended procedure.

 

[GHA]

Why do you think it’s good practice on a yacht?

Answering a question with a question..... the answer was given already.

How will the windlass know (or care) what you are doing?

There's no problem in gentler conditions edging a boat to the anchor with short runs on the windlass, the force will be less than a deep anchorage, it's easy to judge.

Definitely not 'extremely poor seamanship'.

 

[jbweston]

. . .
You’d never find a ship lifting their anchor without nudging the ship forward on main engines.
Why do you think it’s good practice on a yacht?

. . .

Most ships never enter harbour without a pilot . . . and yachts do that nearly all the time.

 

[colind3782]

Enough from me. I’ve got to go to work.

Ah, we do make those career choices that come back and bite us!

Enjoy your day.

 

[duncan99210]

The number of times I’ve watched a hapless crew on a neighbouring boat get themselves and their chain into a knot with others by motoring forward too fast is significant. Like it’s a more than daily occurrence in Greece.
When the stern lines are removed, the boat will accelerate forwards at about the same speed as the winch can take up chain. Using the motor at this point will push the boat faster than the winch can take up the chain and chaos ensues.... Let the momentum of the boat do the work, assisted somewhat by the winch, and the chain comes up easily with just enough way on the boat for control. The winch doesn’t do any real work until the chain is vertical and you have to break the anchor out and lift the final few metres. Not bad seamanship: on the contrary, it’s good seamanship in the circumstances.
When free anchored, I’ll use the engine to gently get the boat moving in the right direction but still allow gravity and momentum to do most of the work. If there’s a real headwind, then of course the motor will be used to counter it.

 

[NormanS]

Those of us with decent sized anchor chain, and who still believe in, and get the benefit of catenary, seldom have to use the engine to bring the boat up to the anchor. A modest pull with the windlass lifts some chain, and the boat obediently starts moving forward. I see no evidence of poor seamanship in that. OK, if it's blowing a hoolie, I'll help her a little with the engine, but not in normal conditions.

 

[john_morris_uk]

But to enlarge on my previous suggestion about good seamanship, surely best practice is to get the crew on the foredeck to indicate where the cable lies. If the conditions are dead calm and there’s no current and the catenary of the chain pulls the boat forward so that the chain is ‘up and down’ then of course there’s no point in nudging the boat forward with the engine. (FWIW I do exactly the same thing myself. )
However, I still maintain that pulling the weight of the whole boat forward by the winch is bad seamanship. It’s not what the winch is designed to do and just because one can get away with it in mild conditions (I agree that the winch doesn’t care what it’s pulling) is no reason to argue that it’s good practice.

Driving the boat forward over the chain is equally poor (inept?) seamanship.
Perhaps it’s better to conclude that good seamanship is being aware of the forces and loads involved and being careful and considerate to the kit you’re using.

And for all the examples of when it might be ok to allow the windlass to do all the work, I can recount tales of boats trying to raise their anchors whilst sitting in strong tidal streams with the poor windlass straining and groaning whilst there’s 40 hp under the cockpit sole sitting at idle and doing nothing.

 

[jbweston]

Those of us with decent sized anchor chain, and who still believe in, and get the benefit of catenary, seldom have to use the engine to bring the boat up to the anchor. A modest pull with the windlass lifts some chain, and the boat obediently starts moving forward. I see no evidence of poor seamanship in that. OK, if it's blowing a hoolie, I'll help her a little with the engine, but not in normal conditions.

Same here.

I'm often alone, so using the engine to nudge the boat forward towards the anchor isn't an option. The secret is not to use the windlass continuously, but in shorter bursts to let the weight of the chain do its work. In light airs once the boat has started moving foward under 'chain power' she keeps going and then it is possible to keep the windlass running as it's only lifting the slack chain not pulling the boat.

 

[NormanS]

But to enlarge on my previous suggestion about good seamanship, surely best practice is to get the crew on the foredeck to indicate where the cable lies. If the conditions are dead calm and there’s no current and the catenary of the chain pulls the boat forward so that the chain is ‘up and down’ then of course there’s no point in nudging the boat forward with the engine. (FWIW I do exactly the same thing myself. )
However, I still maintain that pulling the weight of the whole boat forward by the winch is bad seamanship. It’s not what the winch is designed to do and just because one can get away with it in mild conditions (I agree that the winch doesn’t care what it’s pulling) is no reason to argue that it’s good practice.

Driving the boat forward over the chain is equally poor (inept?) seamanship.
Perhaps it’s better to conclude that good seamanship is being aware of the forces and loads involved and being careful and considerate to the kit you’re using.

And for all the examples of when it might be ok to allow the windlass to do all the work, I can recount tales of boats trying to raise their anchors whilst sitting in strong tidal streams with the poor windlass straining and groaning whilst there’s 40 hp under the cockpit sole sitting at idle and doing nothing.

My first cruising yacht, a gaff rigged cutter ex ship's lifeboat, with initially no engine, had to suffer my bad seamanship by being pulled by me up forward to her anchor. ????
Well, the only alternative was to use the oars.
In those days, and with that type of boat, there was no alternative to seamanship. Now lots of us have boats where we only use the sails for the easy bits. Seamanship -Pah!

 

[GHA]

Perhaps it’s better to conclude that good seamanship is being aware of the forces and loads involved and being careful and considerate to the kit you’re using.

Yay, Mr Positive comes to visit
Blanket catchall statements don't really help new sailors IMHO, much better to say why something can be a bad idea - an early appreciation of the forces which can be produced by an anchor chain & being wary that the windlass doesn't work too hard must be a good thing.

 

[Kukri]

How uncivilised! its the weekend.

Jonathan

John tends to work on Sundays.

 

[NormanS]

Perhaps Mr Morris considers it to have been bad seamanship when barges were pulled along canals with one horse power.

 

[thinwater]

Same here.

I'm often alone, so using the engine to nudge the boat forward towards the anchor isn't an option. The secret is not to use the windlass continuously, but in shorter bursts to let the weight of the chain do its work. In light airs once the boat has started moving forward under 'chain power' she keeps going and then it is possible to keep the windlass running as it's only lifting the slack chain not pulling the boat.

Yes and no. I singlehand most of the time, and yet I often motor up when it's blowing hard.

a. Install a windlass switch at the helm.
b. Put the engine in gear with just enough throttle to balance part, but not all, of the wind load. You will still use the windlass, but it will be like light winds.

The real risk in chop is that the bow will rise when you are almost over the anchor, snatching the chain with far more force than the windlass is meant for. And there is no simple answer for that one.

 

[jbweston]

Yes and no. I singlehand most of the time, and yet I often motor up when it's blowing hard.

a. Install a windlass switch at the helm.
b. Put the engine in gear with just enough throttle to balance part, but not all, of the wind load. You will still use the windlass, but it will be like light winds.

The real risk in chop is that the bow will rise when you are almost over the anchor, snatching the chain with far more force than the windlass is meant for. And there is no simple answer for that one.

It's a matter of preference I think. I'm not saying how anyone else should do it, just how I do.

I want to operate the windlass from a position where I can see the chain as it comes up to make sure it's clean, and not fowling the bow, so I wouldn't want to control it from the cockpit. Also as the anchor gets close to the hawse I need to keep an eye on it to make sure it doesn't strike the bow or come up the last few feet at full tilt and then come to sudden stop as it hits the hawse, or house itself upside down.

The problem with motoring forward as you suggest is that if the wind is variable or gusty it's impossible to set the throttle just right so that the the engine is helping but the boat doesn't overrun the chain, or at least take up the slack to a point where the bow falls off downwind. I find it easier just to leave the throttle in neutral and use the windlass and weight of the catenary to draw the boat.

I've no objection to using the engine to move the boat forward if I have crew on the foredeck and at the wheel, so that the helmsman can take hand signals from the crew.

In answer to the OP's question, I run the engine when using the electric windlass.