Running the engine when using an anchor winch

[Neeves]

Looking at most windlass they seem to be idiot proof - the damage your are likely to cause might be to the seals, rather than the mechanics. However - many windlass are installed with minimal reinforcing of the fibre glass - I'd worry more about pulling the windlass off the deck than damaging the windlass.

Thinwater's comment on snatch loads when in chop (and worse when caused by a passing MoBo) during retreival of a well set decent anchor might be the biggest issue (anticipating same and applying some form of chain lock is one answer (and having the clutch carefully adjusted another).

Jonathan

 

[Ohlin Karcher]

A good point about the snatch loads on the windlass from a pitching bow.
Chain lock devices appear to be made so the chain can be winched in, but lock and prevent the anchor falling. They have a little handle or rod on the hinged flap, so you have to lift it by hand, with tension taken off the chain, to disengage the slotted flap from the chain link, if you want to veer the chain.
I will be buying and installing one soon, and if I can't find one which does that I will modify it.
That shoukd stop the snatch loads on the windlass from the bow pitching up and down.

 

[Roberto]

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[john_morris_uk]

Yay, Mr Positive comes to visit
Blanket catchall statements don't really help new sailors IMHO, much better to say why something can be a bad idea - an early appreciation of the forces which can be produced by an anchor chain & being wary that the windlass doesn't work too hard must be a good thing.

No need to be sarcastic...
What is interesting to me is that when I mention how it’s ooor seamanship to pull the weight of the boat forward with the windlass, there’s a flurry of responses describing benign conditions in special circumstances (to most tidal water sailors) and resulting considerate use of a windlass. Few of them describe actually pulling the boat with the windlass but mention ‘weight of chain and it’s catenary’ or similar.
However nothing has persuaded me to change my mind. I maintain that it’s extremely poor seamanship to allow the whole weight of the boat to be pulled forward by the windlass. It’s designed for retrieving chain and anchor, not pulling the boat along. In benign conditions you might get away with it (as described in all the stern to med mooring accounts) but in tidal waters where you might anchor in a tidal stream nothing is going to persuade me that it’s not poor seamanship if you’re not ready to nudge the boat forward on main engines and take the load off the chain.

 

[Graham_Wright]

Heavy Duty Anchor Chain Stopper 316 Stainless Steel Boat Parts Accessories | eBay

 

[GHA]

No need to be sarcastic...

Wasn't meant to be sarcastic at all, just nice to see you look at the real world as opposed to blanket generalisations. No need to get all grumpy about it.

What is interesting to me is that when I mention how it’s ooor seamanship to pull the weight of the boat forward with the windlass, there’s a flurry of responses describing benign conditions in special circumstances (to most tidal water sailors) and resulting considerate use of a windlass. Few of them describe actually pulling the boat with the windlass but mention ‘weight of chain and it’s catenary’ or similar.
However nothing has persuaded me to change my mind. I maintain that it’s extremely poor seamanship to allow the whole weight of the boat to be pulled forward by the windlass. It’s designed for retrieving chain and anchor, not pulling the boat along. In benign conditions you might get away with it (as described in all the stern to med mooring accounts) but in tidal waters where you might anchor in a tidal stream nothing is going to persuade me that it’s not poor seamanship if you’re not ready to nudge the boat forward on main engines and take the load off the chain.

And completely disagree, as do others. The nub being your blanket statement with no mention whatsoever of *why* it might be a bad idea. Not in the least bit helpful.
For newcomers, no need to just accept from some random post on a web forum that it's 'extremely poor seamanship' without any attempt at learning more by digging deeper. And well worth a little learning, the forces can be huge, same applies to motoring up to the anchor, chain nearly vertical some chop or wash from a passing trawler can produce huge forces.

 

[lw395]

In flat water, it takes much less force to pull the boat forwards slowly then to pull a well buried danforth out of the mud.
In waves, the waves do the work and the windlass retrieves chain while the bow is going down.
But generally easier to take tension off the rode with a little prop thrust.

As well as the windlass motor, it's perhaps worth considering what you are doing to the alternator. Depending on the wiring, you might be loading it beyond its rating.

 

[vyv_cox]

[QUOTE="john_morris_uk, post: 7015737, member.
It’s not what the winch is designed to do
[/QUOTE]
Why do you think that? The design of a good windlass may be considerably more robust than you think.
I have a Maxwell RC8 windlass. Its maximum capacity is 600 kg force. According to the ABYC tables this is about equivalent to 40 knot wind blowing on my boat. All of us wave said thatcwe would not haul in these conditions without shunting the boat forward first. Once moving the load reduces considerably.
So I conclude that in general the windlass is designed to do exactly this. Mine has survived this treatment perfectly for around ten years now.

 

[KAM]

I anchor most of the summer and usually try to drop and weigh anchor under sail. I don't like to start the engine unnecessarily or disturb a quiet anchorage. I've been raising the anchor in some pretty strong conditions for years using my SL anchor man mostly with the main sail hoisted. I don't see how this can be bad seamanship. It's what the winch was designed for. Its got a clutch and soon let's me know if the load is too high. It just hammers the batteries a bit sometimes.

 

[jbweston]

. . . nothing is going to persuade me that it’s not poor seamanship if you’re not ready to nudge the boat forward on main engines and take the load off the chain.

I'm sure most of us aren't trying to persuade you to change your mind. You're entitled to your opinion. Like many things to do with the sea and sailing there's room for more than one way to do things.

It's part of the enjoyment seeing and hearing about how other people do something. Sometimes it's better, sometimes it's worse, sometimes it's just different.

 

[Graham376]

I'm sure most of us aren't trying to persuade you to change your mind. You're entitled to your opinion. Like many things to do with the sea and sailing there's room for more than one way to do things.

It's part of the enjoyment seeing and hearing about how other people do tsomething. Sometimes it's better, sometimes it's worse, sometimes it's just different.

Quite often at calm times, the chain could easily be pulled in by hand so I see no problem giving the winch short bursts and allowing the catenary effect to pull the boat forward but, in strong tides and wind on the nose which we sometimes have in the river, we use engine to push us forward when hauling.

 

[KAM]

Try weighing anchor in a F7 gusting 8. The boat will usually be shearing about rarely pointing towards the anchor for long. Without steerage way using the engine is tricky and doesn't seem help much maybe I'm doing it wrong. Using the winch helps pull the bow round towards the anchor and wind and has got us out of a tricky situation a few times.

 

[john_morris_uk]

We will have to agree to disagree on some of this.

It appears that people start saying - 'But in extreme conditions I use the engine to help', and others say, 'I've got away with it for years so it's not a problem'. The first statement is more or less what I am suggesting and regarding the second, I can think of lots of things that '...people get away with for years' but it doesn't make it a good practice.

Try asking the winch manufacturers... I doubt whether many will say that it's acceptable to winch the boat up to the anchor against a current and wind.

 

[john_morris_uk]

Try weighing anchor in a F7 gusting 8. The boat will usually be shearing about rarely pointing towards the anchor for long. Without steerage way using the engine is tricky and doesn't seem help much maybe I'm doing it wrong. Using the winch helps pull the bow round towards the anchor and wind and has got us out of a tricky situation a few times.

I have on more occasions than I care to remember.

A burst of fwd against the helm is very effective usually, unless the conditions are so severe that you have to wait for the boat to veer back to pointing towards the anchor and then apply some fwd drive to take the load off the chain as you winch in a bit more. Sometimes it takes a few attempts to get the anchor up and down and ready to break out. You need someone competent on the bow in control of the windlass and giving directions to the helm as to which way the cable lies.

 

[john_morris_uk]

Quite often at calm times, the chain could easily be pulled in by hand so I see no problem giving the winch short bursts and allowing the catenary effect to pull the boat forward but, in strong tides and wind on the nose which we sometimes have in the river, we use engine to push us forward when hauling.

I agree completely. It's exactly what we do.

 

[john_morris_uk]

We have a Lofrans X2.

From the manual:

"The anchor windlass must never be used as mooring point. The load must always be held by a specific leaf or solid point.
The capstan must not be used for functions other than paying out or weighing the anchor."

and

"Do not carry out the anchor recovery operation by relying only on the onboard batteries. Start the motor of the boat (or the generator) to obtain the necessary electromotive force."

and

"To ease the recovery and not overloading the capstan, steer up in a way that the boat slowly moves on the vertical of the anchor."

(poor English but with a picture of the boat being driven up to the anchor...)

Seems to sum things up.

 

[capnsensible]

I see no possible benefit in having that graunching noise coming from the windlass as it slows right down when its working too hard. Or when the yacht has sheered off a lot and the anchor cable is rubbibg hard on the anchor fairlead.

It happens......

 

[RupertW]

I see no possible benefit in having that graunching noise coming from the windlass as it slows right down when its working too hard. Or when the yacht has sheered off a lot and the anchor cable is rubbibg hard on the anchor fairlead.

It happens......

Funny, just as I’m reading this thread and agreeing there is no harm in using windlass only if benign when I hear the screeching of a windlass 50 yards always as a boat starts leaving the anchorage in just 18 knots of wind. Its that sound that I realise makes me stop the windlass and either carry on again if the chain droops or get the engine going slowly ahead for bit.

 

[KAM]

Almost lost track of what I was asking. So if I run my engine with its 80amp alternator at say 1500 revs when using the winch will that take most of the load off the battery and save a charge discharge cycle or am I more likely to damage the alternator. Think I'll leave a note on the boat to measure it in the spring.

 

[RupertW]

I cN

Almost lost track of what I was asking. So if I run my engine with its 80amp alternator at say 1500 revs when using the winch will that take most of the load off the battery and save a charge discharge cycle or am I more likely to damage the alternator. Think I'll leave a note on the boat to measure it in the spring.

I can’t see how running the engine at 1500 revs could damage the alternator provided you keep all the batteries attached in your normal way. It won’t keep up while the windlass is running but will help.