Running backstays, how problematic

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jonjo

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I am thinking about buying a gaff cutter 30' LOD and 6 tons.

Having never sailed a gaff rigged yacht before the thought of coping with running back stays is causing me some anxiety.

How critical is the timing of tensioning backstays during a tack or gybe?

Is it realistic to consider singling handing such a yacht?

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I have broken an old wooden mast at deck level by being late with tightening the windward running backstays.
I was single handed in a F5 in sheltered waters on an old 25ft gaff day sailor, and was getting a careless while enjoying myself.

Iain

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Re: Ominous start to this thread

Hmmm maybe I should go and view that Rival 32 after all!

I sold my Nichsolson 38 in September (too big, too much DIY and too little sailing) and am now looking for something else. Have found a gaff rigged yacht and am sold on the main cabin with its coal stove and sense of history.

So far I have concluded that finding the right boat is a bigger challenge than buying a car. For most consumers a car has a clearly defined role but while selecting a yacht I find myself asking fundamental questions about self, life and the universe.

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The answers you seek as to how critical depend upon so many questions being answered, type of rig, weather conditions, direction of wind, sailplan at the time, single or twin backstays ect\; yes you should be able to sail solo, it does require familiarity, therefore initially sail with some who has some expwerience in the rig and it will become second nature. its worth the little effort to unlock the secrets and joys of proper sailing. 'fortune favours the brave'. Good luck

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Re: Twin backstays

> single or twin backstays

Twin, and these terminate about 3 feet forward of the stern. I assume this arrangement allows the leeward backstay to be tensioned prior to a tack?

The shrouds are angled back about 10 degrees.

> the secrets and joys of proper sailing

Beyond the attraction of keeping some living history in working order what else do you rate about a gaff rig when sailing in UK waters?

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Re: Twin backstays

The great problem is that when you need them most, ie, when running and the boom and gaff are well out, it is nigh on impossible to tension the leeward backstay before executing a gybe. The boom has to be brought to near the centreline, the leeward runner tensioned, gybe the boom over and release the new leeward runner. all quite smartly. The boom can then be let out on the new board. If the wind is strong, I'd even contemplate scandalising the gaff before gybing, to take some of the threat out of the manouevre. Tacking is much less of a problem, because the boom will be well in anyway. You'll be able to tension the leeward runner before tacking, and then loose off the new leeward one after the tack has been completed.
I find that sailing a gaffer [especially an old gaffer] is much more satisfying than sailing a modern bermudan yacht. Not as easy, but more satisfying. I find that I do not wear a path across the chandler's threshold, either, as most of the fittings I can make myself or are built with a view to endurance rather than light weight.
Peter.

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Re: Twin backstays

> I find that sailing a gaffer [especially an old gaffer] is much more satisfying

So it is a sense of achievement thing. I can relate to that, sailing a modern design in familiar waters can get boring.

By contrast the long distance voyagers and writers do not seem so sentimental. The Pardeys take a traditional stance on most sailing matters but own a Bermudian cutter with a long bow sprit and in "Sell Up And Sail" a yacht design with running backstays is marked sharply downward in their suitability formula.

After a lot of thinking about what I want from sailing my current idea is a cosy gaff cutter with heating sailed mainly over long week-ends September thru to June with a summer refit timed when the Solent is most crowded.

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I sail a 5 ton gaff cutter mostly solo and have no problem with coping during a gybe or tack.
Two things:
Depending on the boat Runners may be an essential part of the mast support system, normally found on racers. On working or cruising boats the real job of the runners is to mamtain jib luff tension... buy this sort.
Also check that when short tacking BOTH runners can be set up without doing anything other than touch the mainsail. Short tacking a cutter is enough work as it is without sweating over the runners.

IanW


<hr width=100% size=1>Vertue 203, Patience
 
Re: Twin backstays

If you found there was too much DIY on your previous yacht, a gaff cutter of any significant age won't help you here - however, I would imagine you'd get a lot more of a sense of achievement out of that work.

I sail two Bermudian yachts with runners, one of which is my own. The first has runners led to blocks, and ropes through these are cleated down to tension the stay. When executing a gybe, hauling in the boom, tensioning the leeward runner, and gybing her work prefectly if done with plenty of time. Short gybing could be tricky.

A nice option, fitted to both my own yacht and that of a friend, is to have Highfield Levers fitted - to throw a lever into position to tension a backstay, then chucking the other off, is simplicity itself. My friend's gaff cutter has a very similar system to my own, and presumably works in a similar fashion.

Bear in mind that the Pardey's are likely to have different priorities to anyone but a confirmed long-term cruiser, and that if you're taken by a gaff cutter, you're probably not of the "Sell Up And Sail" variety. I'd say that if you like everything about your chosen Gaffer, including the sense of history and a cosy coal-heated cabin, it's worth buying her and then making modifications for easier singlahanded sailing. You can modify a rig over time to suit your needs, but you can't buy the great sensation of owning and sailing a traditional boat.

Good luck!

/<

<hr width=100% size=1>"Stop mucking about, darling, and get the bloody mud weight over."
 
If the boat you are considering is based on a traditional working boat hull and gaff rig, the running backstays are almost certainly, as Ian Wright has stated, only to improve luff tension. Traditionally, most gaff working boats never had backstays for working, only fitted for the annual regatta when they added larger sails and wanted top performance. If this is the case, and you want to cruise and not race, then don't wory about the backstays, you will get used to using them when needed. You will enjoy the satisfaction of gaffering and also the increaded stability from a low aspect rig on a heavy deep keel of a working boat derived hull that will always look after you. My gaff gutter (Falmouth working boat) does not have backstays at all.

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Re: Twin backstays

Agree with above post. Highfield levers certainly help; I replaced blocks and tackles with Highfields and they make life a lot simpler.

I regularly singlehand a 12 ton gaff cutter; she has a Wykeham Martin roller furling jib, a boom staysail and worm drive ("Appledore") roller reefing on the mainsail; all gear that has been around for 90 years or so, which makes singlehanding easy.

As Ian Wright says, a cruising gaff cutter should not depend on the runners to keep the mast up; they are there to help tension the jib luff and to some extent to help the masthead during pitching.

When gybing in a seaway, get the mainsail well in, belay it, set up the lee runner, gybe, cast off the new lee runner, then ease the mainsheet. In sheltered waters I leave both runner off.

<hr width=100% size=1>Que scais-je?
 
Maintaining jib luff tension?

On my cutter, I've always assumed the purpose of the runners is to support the inner stay at the hounds, against the pull of the staysail. Otherwise the centre of the mast bends forward - which actually has the effect of tensioning the jib luff, though of course slackening the staysail.

If for any reason I don't use the staysail, e.g. for a spinnaker run, then I don't bother to tension the runners.

(Not a CB, just a fairly conservative modern cruiser).

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Re: Maintaining jib luff tension?

Different boats, different longsplices,,,,,,,,,
On Patience the runners oppose the jib. the fore stay is supported by the aft lower shrouds. No doubt there are many ways of skinning this particular cat. ;)

IanW.

<hr width=100% size=1>Vertue 203, Patience
 
Difference between gaff and bermuda cutter rig

Bermuda cutter typically has masthead jib opposed by standing backstay, so runners used to oppose inner forestay on which staysail is set.

Gaff cutter typically has inner forestay opposed by swifters and runners to oppose pull of jib set flying (which begs the question - why do all we owners of gaff cutters have outer forestays - it appears to be a wholly redundant item of rigging!)

<hr width=100% size=1>Que scais-je?
 
Re: Thank you

I have been following your replies and will take more notes when I have a second viewing of the said gaffer next week. Thanks everyone.

Since posting my question I have concluded the swept back angle of the aft shrouds only has to match that between the cap shrouds and mast to provide equivalent support. Originally I thought the small for-aft angle of the rear shrouds would provide negligible support to the mast.

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Why indeed,,,,,,,,?

But not all at all,,,,,,,,, :)
Patience has no jib stay on the advice of Jimmy Lawrence. Quote, " It won't do no good when the jib's set 'cos it'll go slack and chafe the sail, and when the jib's not up your stick'll stand by itself." Which, touch wood, it has done, so far.

IanW

<hr width=100% size=1>Vertue 203, Patience
 
Useless bit of wire rope

I'm not at all sure why I keep mine; particularly since the bowsprit houses. NB a reefing bowsprit is well worth having!

<hr width=100% size=1>Que scais-je?
 
Re: Useless bit of wire rope

There is one occation where that piece of wire will not be useless. In heavy weather, if you run the jib in and leave the bowsprit out (either because you are still stowing the jib or because it is safer to get back to the cockpit reather that spend time stowing the bowsprit), if the bowsprit dives into a wave the load from the water on it as the boat rises can snap the bowsprit if there is no forestay on it. It has happened!

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