Rules Question. Sailing Downwind Passing to Leeward On a Higher Course

[savageseadog]

We were sailing to a mark which to all intents and purposes was downwind. Wind was very light and variable direction. We were well to leeward of another boat on the same gybe (with kites). We pointed higher to keep our sails full, we appeared to be crossing ahead of the windward boat, as we drew nearer this boat seemed to change course to leeward putting us very close to leeward. The other boat claimed that we were luffing her after coming from further away than 2 boat lengths, we maintained we were crossing on a proper course and they were windward boat.

Any thoughts?

 

[flaming]

First thought is they're about as wrong as it's possible to be, and they really need to go read rule 17.

1: if you established your overlap more than 2 boat lengths to leeward of them, you can luff them anyway.
2: if you didn't you're still entitled to sail your proper course, including reacting to changes in wind direction or pressure.

 

[Keen_Ed]

WS case 14 deals with this situation. Windward must keep clear.

The one thing you can't do is sail into a leeward boats winds shadow, and then luff because you have to head up to maintain the apparent, unless 17 doesn't apply.

 

[flaming]

I was on a phone earlier, but it's worth quoting the full text of 17.

17 ON THE SAME TACK; PROPER COURSE
If a boat clear astern becomes overlapped within two of her hull
lengths to leeward of a boat on the same tack, she shall not sail
above her proper course while they remain on the same tack and
overlapped within that distance, unless in doing so she promptly sails
astern of the other boat. This rule does not apply if the overlap
begins while the windward boat is required by rule 13 to keep clear.

Defintion of PROPPER COURSE

Proper Course: A course a boat would sail to finish as soon as possible in
the absence of the other boats referred to in the rule using the term. A boat
has no proper course before her starting signal.

Cut and dried this one - you were always allowed to sail your proper course, and if you came up from a long way below, you weren't even limited by that.

 

[savageseadog]

Proper course. The definition says " A course a boat would sail to finish as soon as possible........" not necessarily directly to the next mark as I understand. The finish was next and we were pointing higher than the line ODM in order to keep some drive on, we did later point down and make the line.

 

[flaming]

Proper course. The definition says " A course a boat would sail to finish as soon as possible........" not necessarily directly to the next mark as I understand. The finish was next and we were pointing higher than the line ODM in order to keep some drive on, we did later point down and make the line.

If you would have sailed that course if the other boat wasn't there, then that's your proper course. It does not have to be a rhum line.

 

[Birdseye]

But you can always claim that Flaming since only you know what course you would have sailed.

Hasnt the OP become overlapped within 2 boat lengths from astern and isnt he now sailing above what independant views might see as his proper course.

 

[lw395]

But you can always claim that Flaming since only you know what course you would have sailed.

Hasnt the OP become overlapped within 2 boat lengths from astern and isnt he now sailing above what independant views might see as his proper course.

He might be, in which case the windward boat needs to keep clear and protest.

 

[flaming]

But you can always claim that Flaming since only you know what course you would have sailed.

Hasnt the OP become overlapped within 2 boat lengths from astern and isnt he now sailing above what independant views might see as his proper course.

If it goes to protest, you just need to justify your course, you don't even have to be right, e.g. "I was sailing high because I wanted to go to that side of the course because I was expecting more wind over there" does not fail if there turned out to be no more wind. The test is simply "would that boat have sailed that course if the other boat wasn't there?"

If you sail the same course after the overlap was established as you were before you're going to be safe in 90% of cases. An iphone running a tracking app is all you'd need to be able to prove that.

 

[howard easton]

How do you square your last paragraph with your previous " if you established your overlap more than 2 boat lengths to leeward of them, you can luff them anyway.". You seem to be saying that your are 90% OK if you hold your course and have a tracker but then saying you can luff and dont need to hold course.

 

[flaming]

How do you square your last paragraph with your previous " if you established your overlap more than 2 boat lengths to leeward of them, you can luff them anyway.". You seem to be saying that your are 90% OK if you hold your course and have a tracker but then saying you can luff and dont need to hold course.

Sorry, just seen this.

That's 2 different scenarios.

In the most common rule 17 scenario, the overtaking boat establishes an overlap less than 2 boatlengths to leeward of the other boat. The leeward (overtaking) boat is then limited to sailing her proper course. In practice, in yacht sailing, proving that you held the same course after you became overlapped will win you every rule 17 protest. (Been there, got that T-shirt). The only exception to that is if you sail them past the point when you would (in their absence) have gybed for a mark, or headland etc.

The other rule 17 scenario is if the overlap is established with the boats more than 2 boatlengths apart. In that situation you can luff all you like, as rule 17 does not apply. However, in 10 years of yacht racing I have only ever seen this happen in match racing. Even where it might happen - with Asymmetric rigged boats sailing much hotter angles - it's kind of irrelevant as it's basically a really dumb idea to come screaming up underneath someone and then luff them. 9 times out of 10 the A-sail boat comes up underneath the S-sail boat and either rolls through as the S-sail boat heats up to keep clear, or gets stuck underneath and does the sensible thing and gybes off.

 

[Birdseye]

I can certainly agree your comment about match racing though getting to the end of a series of races, a match racing approach to life can often appear in any fleet.

The OP posses an interesting question. Though he doesnt say so, I am guessing that the OP acquired an overlap and therefore right of way as leeward boat before he came within 2 boat lengths. That suggests to me that rule 17 does not apply since the OP didnt become overlapped within 2 boat lengths.

If he was within 2 boat lengths when he became overlapped then its messy. The OP says the course was downwind with wind varying in direction so both boats are going to be varying their courses as the wind shifts since there is no mention of a gybe . Thus unless the OP alters course more than windshifts require, he wont be sailing above a proper course. He will just be trimming his course.

Does this make sense?

 

[lw395]

It only gets messy when the windward boat fails to keep clear and needs to be protested.

 

[flaming]

It only gets messy when the windward boat fails to keep clear and needs to be protested.

The biggest misunderstanding with this rule is who's proper course applies.

It is the leeward boat's proper course that matters, the windward boat's proper course is irrelevant.

 

[savageseadog]

I can certainly agree your comment about match racing though getting to the end of a series of races, a match racing approach to life can often appear in any fleet.

The OP posses an interesting question. Though he doesnt say so, I am guessing that the OP acquired an overlap and therefore right of way as leeward boat before he came within 2 boat lengths. That suggests to me that rule 17 does not apply since the OP didnt become overlapped within 2 boat lengths.

If he was within 2 boat lengths when he became overlapped then its messy. The OP says the course was downwind with wind varying in direction so both boats are going to be varying their courses as the wind shifts since there is no mention of a gybe . Thus unless the OP alters course more than windshifts require, he wont be sailing above a proper course. He will just be trimming his course.

Does this make sense?

That's why I asked the question. There was no gybe by either boat. We obtained overlap over two lengths away, as we came nearer the other boat, we were on a higher course and backwinded them, their sails collapsed, we are a fair bit bigger boat they turned downwind, we continued on our higher course, our kite collapsed as we passed trough their shadow they turned upwind with much shouting and we cleared ahead. As we approached the line and the side of the river the current set us down to the line as it picked up in strength. The only issue in possible dispute could be where we gained the overlap.

 

[Birdseye]

As you describe it and IMHO, rule 17 doesnt apply and the other guy ( assuming he really was the windward boat) should have kept clear.

Anyway, what did the protest committee decide? In my three protest appearances so far I was in the wrong once but lost all three. So you can see how much my comments are worth. Or how unreliable protest committees are. I dont bother any longer. Someone protests me and I do the turns whether I am in the right or not. Life is too short for legalistic bickering.