john_morris_uk
Well-Known Member
Fishing boats are an exception as in fifty years of sailing I still can’t guess what they’re going to do next. I watch them very carefully until we’re passed and clear.
Rule 17 -- Vid of a close encounter....
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john_morris_uk
Well-Known Member
Except the rules apply to vessels in sight of each other. (Ignoring restricted viz for now.)
Cerebus
N/A
I stand corrected.
I do not have 50 years under my belt as you do.
I will think more about how I should react at sea (I have been applying all my thoughts to night sailing by the way if it makes any difference).
westhinder
Well-Known Member
On most, if not all big ships, part of the standing orders is to maintain CPA above a set distance, often 1 NM. An officer of the watch on your fully laden 1600’ super tanker would have an awkward conversation with his captain if he was found not to have altered course in good time for a stand-on vessel, no matter its size. As has been said before, they will apply IRPCS and expect us to do the same.
ylop
Well-Known Member
The alternative supposed that not only do the crew not have any regard for human life but they would relish the investigation process that likely follows a collision. That seems like hocum!
The risk is not thinking it is going to happen (it does every day) but assuming that anyone has spotted you in the first place.
You only become a stand on vessel once there is a risk of collision. Early avoidance is probably prudent, but it’s not always actually that easy.
requiem
Well-Known Member
Per another comment, there's a good chance that by the time you are noticing the ship it has already altered. Which means that your own alteration is either a) further, but unnecessarily, opening in the distance, or b) cancelling out the ship's adjustment and putting you back into danger.
Not knowing your equipment or process, I don't want to make assumptions, so I'll just mention some possibilities.
1, you have radar or AIS and have determined whether the other ship will cross ahead or aft of you, as well as the closest it will get to you.
2, you have neither, but you do have a hand compass and have taken the time to take bearings, say, at least 6 minutes apart.
It's certainly possible someone on the other ship is doing paperwork when they should be keeping watch, so it's quite reasonable to be ready to take action in such a case. Either of the two options above would provide some guidance on what action is best.
What's dangerous is when someone sees a ship, assumes it will be a problem, and then bumps their heading by 20° or 30° thinking they've fixed things. Often such an action can have the opposite effect, essentially putting them back onto a collision course.
Pye_End
Well-Known Member
Quite the opposite. Happens all the time, and usually well before sailing boat is beginning to wonder if there is a problem. Look at AIS and you will see the behaviour.
You still have to be careful though for those that don't, but these are very much in the minority..
bedouin
Well-Known Member
They certainly do - often a couple of miles off and it only needs a course change of a degree or two.
The problem with you breaking the rules is that as like as not you are putting yourself into greater danger by doing so.
If he as altered course to pass a safe distance astern any action you take is going to bring you closer to him
winch2
Well-Known Member
Well Ive been sailing over 40 years and Ive never been called out or upset anyone of note, let alone caused a serious incident. I think it would actually be most interesting to hear from the Captain of a large bulk carrier or even a ferry, get some perspective.
LittleSister
Well-Known Member
The ColRegs are there to provide predictability, and by ignoring them you're adding unpredictability..
seeSimon
Well-Known Member
Where possible, I like to give a courtesy call to the ship, and let them know what I have done re slowing, course alteration etc. I try to keep well clear...
There may be many factors at play, human factors as well a "simple" COLREGS in my experience/opinion.
This MAIB report of UK vivier crabber etoile des ondes v a Singapore flag bulk carrier makes very chilling reading indeed...
Not only did they collide, the ship did not stop. Ignored the mayday relay, the left the scene...people died!
They, with the collusion/under orders of the master, then attempted to falsify the evidence.!
Ultimately, the master escaped the scene and fled the country...AFAIK, he's not been sanctioned?
Collision between bulk carrier Alam Pintar and potter Etoile des Ondes resulting in potter sinking with loss of 1 life
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seeSimon
Well-Known Member
Don't make the assumption that even professional mariners on very large ships will necessarily follow the rules. They too may behave erratically (from your perspective).
I'm not being rude, see post above.
I speak from experience as both a yottie and a large ship professional seafarer (Chief Engineer, not navigator, but I've seen things..).
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Mark-1
Well-Known Member
For a large portion of my life I'd have agreed with you but since AIS came along I've been able to see they absolutely do.
Very sensible, but since that is your policy there can never be a risk of collision so the stand on rule never allied to you and you're not breaking any rule. Also there's the "long range" clause which excuses you if you're miles away. (According to Cockroft the reason it isn't written in the text is becaise "the conference" all thought it was obvious!
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LittleSister
Well-Known Member
I don't. (The ColRegs actually require that, and make provision for what to do if the other party fails to follow the rules.)
But just because some minority might fail to follow the rules is not a reason for everyone else to ignore them, too. That way madness lies.
Marsali_1
Well-Known Member
I suspect that one reason some folks choose to ignore the Colregs, even though they have been adopted into law in maritime countries such as the UK, is because the Colregs have no penalties for non-compliance. Someone who drives erratically down a road and into the path of an oncoming vehicle, whether they collide or not, can be penalized in most jurisdictions for an offence such as "driving without due care and attention". However the same person doing the same thing in a boat on the water can't face sanction under the Colregs (but might if there are applicable penalties enacted by subordinate authorities). What people who chose to ignore the requirements of the Colregs should consider is, are they prepared to accept all liabilities if their actions and lack of conforming causes an incident involving another vessel or vessels that leads to damage, financial losses and/or injuries to persons on board the affected vessel(s)?
Lucky Duck
Well-Known Member
Breaking the rules in the Dover TSS is likely to see one on the receiving end of a substantial fine.
Similarly the infamous racing boat vs tanker incident outside Cowes saw the owner in front of the magistrates for failing to keep a proper look out
Similarly the infamous racing boat vs tanker incident outside Cowes saw the owner in front of the magistrates for failing to keep a proper look out
DFL1010
Well-Known Member
This is completely untrue. Breaches of Colregs can, and frequently have, been pursued by the courts.
The Merchant Shipping (Distress Signals and Prevention of Collisions) Regulations 1996 tells us:
Penalties
6.—(1) Where any of these Regulations is contravened, the owner of the vessel, the master and any person for the time being responsible for the conduct of the vessel shall each be guilty of an offence, punishable on conviction on indictment by imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years and a fine, or on summary conviction:
(a)in the case of any infringement of Rule 10(b)(i) (duty to proceed with traffic flow in lanes of separation schemes) of the International Regulations (being an offence corresponding to an offence under section 419(2) of the Merchant Shipping Act 1894(10)) by a fine not exceeding £50,000; and
(b)in any other case by a fine not exceeding the statutory maximum.
(2) It shall be a defence for any person charged under these Regulations to show that he took all reasonable precautions to avoid the commission of the offence.
DFL1010
Well-Known Member
Not a Captain, but I was a watchkeeper.
I can assure you we do alter for yachts (as said by others, early, and likely before you realise), and the absolutely worst thing you can do is do unpredictable things.
The closest I've come to an incident was on the East Coast - we were headed south just by N Scroby LB, about to enter the relatively narrow buoyed channel between Gt Yarmouth and Scroby.
Yacht was faffing East of the LB, dropping sails and whatnot (presumably) to go to Gt Yarmouth. We saw them, and saw they were stopped. We then committed to entering the channel (we were only 85m LOA but big enough) and just before we got to them they decided to either not look or not think and try to cross ahead of us.
5 blasts and an emergency stop later, we all survived.
A few choice words about WAFIs were exchanged at that point, so please for the love of dog, if you don't want to join the WAFI of the week awards, follow the rules.
john_morris_uk
Well-Known Member
I’ve crossed the channel on the bridge of a ferry and been on the bridge of several tankers. I’ve always discussed this topic with the bridge watchkeepers and what I report is from their mouths.
Please stop pretending you’re ’just keeping out of the way’. Sailors who do this bring the rest of us a bad name.
Marsali_1
Well-Known Member
Sorry, but the Colregs do not have a penalty section so infractions of them are not punishable. That is why I mentioned "...but might if there are applicable penalties enacted by subordinate authorities..." In your response, The Merchant Shipping (Distress Signals and Prevention of Collisions) Regulations 1996 are UK laws which "... give effect to the International Regulations for Preventing Collisions at Sea, 1972, as amended..." They are enforceable according to Section 2
Application
2.—(1) These Regulations apply to the following vessels—(a)United Kingdom ships wherever they may be, and other ships while within the United Kingdom or the territorial waters thereof; and
(b)seaplanes registered in the United Kingdom and on the surface of water anywhere, and other seaplanes on the surface of water in the United Kingdom or the territorial waters thereof.
(2) In this regulation “ships” include hovercraft.
I haven't looked to see what other countries have similar legislation but, since the Colregs do not specify penalties, that is left to individual countries to establish and enforce via legislation such as The Merchant Shipping (Distress Signals and Prevention of Collisions) Regulations 1996.
To clarify, some people are ignorant of the consequences of ignoring/violating the Colregs because, when they Google "Colregs" they don't get linked to the local legislation. They are sent to the original International Colregs which make no reference to penalties. However ignorance of the law is no defence as they will likely find out if they keep ignoring/violating.
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