Rudder getting stiff

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cmedsailor

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I have noticed that my boat’s rudder lately gets stiff (not really whether helm, just stiff) when healing at about 17-20 degrees or more, even in relatively calm conditions (say 12-15 knots of wind and small waves). I also know, after checking it, that if I try to shake the rudder it will move a little more than acceptable. Could this be the reason for getting stiff? Or could it be my sails getting old and baggy? But if it is the sails, the boat sails really good and fast and as I said it’s not whether helm, meaning I don't have a problem to balance it (not trying to point upwind itself by excessive healing) but I just need strong arms!!
Any ideas? Thanks

PS: Boat is a Beneteau Oceanis 361.
 
cmedsailor said:
I have noticed that my boat’s rudder lately gets stiff (not really whether helm, just stiff) when healing at about 17-20 degrees or more, even in relatively calm conditions (say 12-15 knots of wind and small waves). I also know, after checking it, that if I try to shake the rudder it will move a little more than acceptable. Could this be the reason for getting stiff? Or could it be my sails getting old and baggy? But if it is the sails, the boat sails really good and fast and as I said it’s not whether helm, meaning I don't have a problem to balance it (not trying to point upwind itself by excessive healing) but I just need strong arms!!
Any ideas? Thanks

PS: Boat is a Beneteau Oceanis 361.
Click to expand...

You really have to get your terminology right. If the rudder was getting "stiff" you would find it hard to rotate even when not sailing. If you are requiring more effort on the tiller to keep the boat from going up to windward thats probably a rigging or sail balance problem that could be solved by moving the sail plan forward. Try slackening off the backstay first and getting as much tension on the forestay as you can moving the top of the mast forward. also even with the mast in the correct place for balance a sloppy forestay will cause this.
 
Yes, I know, I am very bad with the terminology (but I am trying to).
The rudder gets stiff to rotate during sailing. But it's not a matter of requiring more effort on the wheel to keep the boat from going up to windward. It's just stiff.
And to make things more interesting, sometimes when I don't use the boat for 1-2 weeks (only recently now in the summer), even without sailing I try to rotate the wheel and again feels stiff (that really I cannot understand, is it the hot medditerenean wheather?).
 
Do you have an hydraulic autopilot (or even a belt driven one)? Could it be a problem with the autopilot mechanical linkage even when it is in standby?

Alan.
 
cmedsailor said:
Yes, I know, I am very bad with the terminology (but I am trying to).
The rudder gets stiff to rotate during sailing. But it's not a matter of requiring more effort on the wheel to keep the boat from going up to windward. It's just stiff.
And to make things more interesting, sometimes when I don't use the boat for 1-2 weeks (only recently now in the summer), even without sailing I try to rotate the wheel and again feels stiff (that really I cannot understand, is it the hot medditerenean wheather?).
Click to expand...

OK now we know it's wheel steering and not a tiller and it is indeed "stiff" we are getting somewhere. Firstly it won't be the weather but it might be the rudder bearings themselves. Some manufacturers still persist in fitting nylon bearings which swell up in water and make the rudder stock stiff to turn. the way to check this is to disconnect the rudder tiller arm from what drives it and see if it rotates freely by hand. If it does the problem is in the drive from the wheel to the tiller arm (which I suspect is the case) There are several methods of drive.

1. Shaft and gear drive.... In which case bearings etc need lubricating
2. Chain drive.... In which case chain needs checking for corrosion, cleaning and (unless it is stainless) lubricating with chain oil.
3. Cable drive..... cables need checking, cleaning and greasing. Many cheapshod builders fit whitlock cables (or similar) and entirely fail to provide grease points in which case you need to withdraw the whole inner cable from the outer, grease it, and put it back. This is the most common fault and probable cause in your case if you have this type of steering.

Finally you may find chain in the wheel pedastal driving cables.... In which case both 2 and 3 apply.
And finally finally ensure the bearings on your wheel are free!
 
Stiff rudder problem

Dave
I know its a pain but why not share your knowledge with the rest of us, surely that is what the forum is for. If the answers are restricted there would be no point in reading the stuff!
 
Could be worn bearings.
If the bearings are worn they will allow the rudder shaft to run at an angle to the bearing carriers, the local pressure will increase on th ebearing surface. This can then produce localised heat and if they are one of the plastic (not phenolic) bearings this can soften the bearing material increasing friction.

It could however as others have suggested be anywhere in the mechanics between the weel and the quadrant. It's usually easy to disconnect the wheel steering and use an emergency tiller to check if this is where the problem is.

Good luck, I hope your lazarette is bigger than the last one I worked in!
 
boatmike said:
3. Cable drive..... cables need checking, cleaning and greasing. Many cheapshod builders fit whitlock cables (or similar) and entirely fail to provide grease points in which case you need to withdraw the whole inner cable from the outer, grease it, and put it back. This is the most common fault and probable cause in your case if you have this type of steering
Click to expand...

I have whitlock cables without nipples and have been able to free them up by pouring 3 in 1 oil down the cable conduits until it runs out at the quadrant. This seems to clean out the muck. I then use Wurth HSS 2000, (fluid when squirted, it becomes thicker in situ as a solvent evaporates).

To get at the top of the conduit, (at the bottom of the pedestal), I use a cut off car aerial, squashed a bit at one end so it just pokes into the space between the conduit and the cable - a bit fiddly, but beats removing the conduits and cables.

Also, having read the Moody manual, I recently adjusted, (loosened), the tension in the cables by tightening the nuts at the quadrant to finger tight only, (as per the manual). My wheel is now freer than ever.
 
Quandary said:
Dave
I know its a pain but why not share your knowledge with the rest of us, surely that is what the forum is for. If the answers are restricted there would be no point in reading the stuff!
Click to expand...

Okay will do very briefly.
My 2 yr old 361 suffered stiff steering. The problem got worse as the helm was used for long periods especially with activity ie quartering seas and kite up. I removed the rudder - very difficult as it was very tight on the top bush. Turned out that the top bush material which mates on the grp rudder shaft was made wrongly from anhydrous plastic and had swollen. This became more pronounced with use and expansion due to friction. A new top bush and the problem was solved boat seemed to be 0.5 knt faster especially upwind and certainly nicer to steer. I was ver careful with lubriocation materials ensuring I did not use something that caused swelling of grp or new bush.
Ps old bush had to be cut into segmrents to reomve as Beneteau had bonded it in to the rudder stem tube.
Hope this enlightens.
Incidently I did reply to the OP when he posted this same question about a year ago and sent him a step by step diagramatic instruction sheets to his home in Greece.
Dave
 
it may be better to haul your boat & take the rudder out, it sounds like maybe weak supports, stuffed bearings,dodgy alignment, when things go wrong on a boat, erratically theres no telling what may happen, it may be o k for years, or one day, it may jam, & as with everything if you know what the problem is, you can deal with it, if you dont know what the problem is, its gambling
 
Stiff Rudder

Dave, appreciated that response, I had heard of the problem of unsuitable bushing materials many years ago but thought it greatly pre-dated your boat.
 
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