Rudder damage

[sailoppopotamus]

Two days before I was due to haul out my boat, my mooring line failed. The boat was med-moored stern-to and was blown stern-first onto the dock, with the rudder catching on a submerged rock right next to the dock. Thankfully it was only blowing a little over ten knots, and this was quickly noticed by people in the marina who managed to tie my boat onto a neighbouring boat until I could get to it and move it to another spot. I hauled the boat out 48 hours later, to find that the rudder has indeed suffered some damage. I've attached pictures of this. The gash seems to be 10-15cm long, at the bottom of the trailing edge of the rudder.

Mechanically, the rudder seems fine -- there's hardly any play, it moves from end to end without resistance, and I had no problems maneuvering the boat from where it was docked to where it was picked up by the crane.

My questions are the following:

1. Does it seem like this could be repaired in place, or will I have to remove the rudder? Unfortunately I'm not allowed to dig a hole under the rudder so it will be quite expensive if I had to remove it.
2. Do I have to wait for it to dry before it can be repaired? How long? The rudder stayed in the water for 48 hours in this state. How will I know when it's dry? I'm quite keen to get the boat in the water as quickly as possible, but know I can't rush this.
3. How worried should I be about the water dribbling out from the hole that houses the bearing? People in the marina told me that all boats do this when hauled out (the photo was taken 24 hours after haul out).

The boat is a 1988 Jeanneau Sun Light 30.

 

[LONG_KEELER]

Two days before I was due to haul out my boat, my mooring line failed. The boat was med-moored stern-to and was blown stern-first onto the dock, with the rudder catching on a submerged rock right next to the dock. Thankfully it was only blowing a little over ten knots, and this was quickly noticed by people in the marina who managed to tie my boat onto a neighbouring boat until I could get to it and move it to another spot. I hauled the boat out 48 hours later, to find that the rudder has indeed suffered some damage. I've attached pictures of this. The gash seems to be 10-15cm long, at the bottom of the trailing edge of the rudder.

Mechanically, the rudder seems fine -- there's hardly any play, it moves from end to end without resistance, and I had no problems maneuvering the boat from where it was docked to where it was picked up by the crane.

My questions are the following:

1. Does it seem like this could be repaired in place, or will I have to remove the rudder? Unfortunately I'm not allowed to dig a hole under the rudder so it will be quite expensive if I had to remove it.
2. Do I have to wait for it to dry before it can be repaired? How long? The rudder stayed in the water for 48 hours in this state. How will I know when it's dry? I'm quite keen to get the boat in the water as quickly as possible, but know I can't rush this.
3. How worried should I be about the water dribbling out from the hole that houses the bearing? People in the marina told me that all boats do this when hauled out (the photo was taken 24 hours after haul out).

The boat is a 1988 Jeanneau Sun Light 30. View attachment 131331View attachment 131332View attachment 131333View attachment 131334

It looks like the foam inside has been breached and will probably need to be repaired in situ.
You could drill some holes to let the water out but is likely to take some time. After grinding the bad stuff away fill with a two part epoxy filler. The problem is letting enough time to pass to drain the water out. Other contributors may have had success with two part epoxy putty that may be ok for a season perhaps.

 

[vyv_cox]

There are epoxy putties that will set when wet, and even require wet wiping to smooth off. I use Milliput but many others are available. Dig some foam out, allow to dry as long as you have available, then replace with putty. You can then lay up glass and epoxy using the putty as a former.

 

[sailoppopotamus]

Thanks to both of you for your replies. I'm worried that if I don't dry it sufficiently before repairing that I will trap moisture inside and compromise the whole rudder in the long term. Is this a valid concern or am I overthinking it? Ideally I'd want the boat in the water in a couple of months at most, but is that enough time for it to dry out?

 

[KompetentKrew]

Some brown and black wood is visible in the "hole". How does it feel? Solid or soft?

 

[superboots]

I think you should get a surveyor to check it out and notify your insurance as if it get expensive it may be necessary to claim. I'd be concerned there is damage at the top of the skeg - there is a crack. Also it looks like there's been a previous repair on the rudder and the incident has knocked part of the patch out. I think there are some benefits in having a stainless steel shoe on the bottom of rudders - especially on boats mooring med style

 

[peter gibbs]

Thanks to both of you for your replies. I'm worried that if I don't dry it sufficiently before repairing that I will trap moisture inside and compromise the whole rudder in the long term. Is this a valid concern or am I overthinking it? Ideally I'd want the boat in the water in a couple of months at most, but is that enough time for it to dry out?

Trapped water - a lot of rudders have moisture within. Not a fundamental problem.

It looks like the foam inside has been breached and will probably need to be repaired in situ.
You could drill some holes to let the water out but is likely to take some time. After grinding the bad stuff away fill with a two part epoxy filler. The problem is letting enough time to pass to drain the water out. Other contributors may have had success with two part epoxy putty that may be ok for a season perhaps.

From your pics your whole rudder gear and support seem to have taken a substantial hit.
You can call in a surveyor etc Removal of the rudder and remake is probably the advice you will get.

Or, with some confidence you can DIY but with provisos:
Check along the interior keel bedding to see if there is any internal cracking / signs of movement
Assuming not - the seal with the hull needs remaking.
Check the rudder stock alignment and seating top and bottom for damage by way of the supporting structure.
Assuming ok, the rudder blade skin and foam filling can be cut back to good material and remade. Water will have to be drained out by drilling holes.
Finishing to a waterproof repair of sufficient thickness requires some skill with fibre glass etc- check it out.

Finally, excuse me pointing it out, but the rudder and bearings take a lot of pressure in service. The rudder edge repairs are the least of your worries. If there
is any doubt about the stock or bearings or the keel seatings you had better go with a claim and prepare for some time out of the water.

Very sorry for you to hear of your experience. If seatings have been damaged this is a repair potentially towards the top of the scale for specialist treatment.

 

[sailoppopotamus]

Some brown and black wood is visible in the "hole". How does it feel? Solid or soft?

I'm away from the boat now, but will check as soon as I visit again (probably not for a few days since the weather will be quite bad). I don't recall it being particularly soft but this may just be wishful thinking on my part, I have to double check.

 

[sailoppopotamus]

I think you should get a surveyor to check it out and notify your insurance as if it get expensive it may be necessary to claim. I'd be concerned there is damage at the top of the skeg - there is a crack. Also it looks like there's been a previous repair on the rudder and the incident has knocked part of the patch out. I think there are some benefits in having a stainless steel shoe on the bottom of rudders - especially on boats mooring med style

I'll try to sand down the area where the skeg meets the hull to see if this is structural. Your observation that the rudder may have previously been repaired is also a good one, and would explain the potentially rotted wood. There's no way the wood rotted like that in the 48 hours that it was submerged. As for the insurance, I'm not sure what the process is to make a claim. This is also my first boat, bought less than a year ago, and I'm a bit concerned that my insurance may absolutely skyrocket if I make a claim.

 

[sailoppopotamus]

Trapped water - a lot of rudders have moisture within. Not a fundamental problem.

From your pics your whole rudder gear and support seem to have taken a substantial hit.
You can call in a surveyor etc Removal of the rudder and remake is probably the advice you will get.

Or, with some confidence you can DIY but with provisos:
Check along the interior keel bedding to see if there is any internal cracking / signs of movement
Assuming not - the seal with the hull needs remaking.
Check the rudder stock alignment and seating top and bottom for damage by way of the supporting structure.
Assuming ok, the rudder blade skin and foam filling can be cut back to good material and remade. Water will have to be drained out by drilling holes.
Finishing to a waterproof repair of sufficient thickness requires some skill with fibre glass etc- check it out.

Finally, excuse me pointing it out, but the rudder and bearings take a lot of pressure in service. The rudder edge repairs are the least of your worries. If there
is any doubt about the stock or bearings or the keel seatings you had better go with a claim and prepare for some time out of the water.

Very sorry for you to hear of your experience. If seatings have been damaged this is a repair potentially towards the top of the scale for specialist treatment.

So from the comments here this may be more serious than I originally thought it was ?

To clarify, the bit shown in the picture is a (semi) skeg, not the keel (it's a fin keel boat). The skeg doesn't seem to be a separate part, i.e. inside the boat there are no bolts holding the skeg. I'll check the rudder stock alignment -- presumably if the bottom of the leading edge of the rudder does not move as it goes from lock-to-lock I can assume that the rudder stock is OK. As for the bearings, I'm thinking that since there is virtually no play to the rudder (as in I grab it and try to shake it but it doesn't really budge), and the rudder moves freely from end to end, it must mean that the bearings are okay too. Maybe I'm being too optimistic here.

Otherwise it seems that perhaps I can try to cut the rudder until I get to good material, and if that shows that the damage is not too extensive, rebuild the edge without removing the rudder.

Either way I'm not sure this is something I want to DIY, I'm just looking for advice here so that I can understand what's going on and not have to blindly trust whatever I'm told "I have to do" or "not worry about" by various parties.

By the way, I'm new to the forum and would like to thank everybody who chimed in with their advice on this, I'm very grateful.

 

[sailoppopotamus]

I'm not sure it adds anything to the discussion, but in the off-chance that it does I'm attaching the uncropped picture of the skeg (I cropped to circumvent the file-size restrictions on the forum).

 

[Neeves]

If you have insurance for the yacht - it seems a standard claim and not something you need rush.

Though looking at the image showing the 'interior' of the rudder - the deep brown stain looks 'old' *which you seem to accept) or there is a lot of mud where the accident occurred. If its old much of the damage occurred 'earlier' and has nothing to do with the accident.

I'd not worry about premiums sky rocketing - find a new insurer.

Have it repaired properly (and keep the receipts). if you bodge it - it will reflect on its resale value.

Jonathan

 

[Stemar]

I hope it's nothing, but I noticed a crack at the top of the skeg



If that happened at the same time, I would suggest it's definitely an insurance job. If you do DIY, I'd put a few layers of glass cloth and epoxy over both sides of that joint.

Far more than you want to know about messing about the GRP: https://www.westsystem.com/wp-content/uploads/Fiberglass-Manual-2015.pdf

 

[sailoppopotamus]

I hope it's nothing, but I noticed a crack at the top of the skeg

View attachment 131372

If that happened at the same time, I would suggest it's definitely an insurance job. If you do DIY, I'd put a few layers of glass cloth and epoxy over both sides of that joint.

Far more than you want to know about messing about the GRP: https://www.westsystem.com/wp-content/uploads/Fiberglass-Manual-2015.pdf

The boat is new to me so I don't know when the crack happened. Best-case scenario, the skeg is flexing under load (or during this incident) and just cracked the anti-fouling. I'll sand down the crack when I next get to the boat to assess the situation. Maybe I'm wrong, but my instinct is that the rudder would've suffered far more damage if the loads were so big as to crack the skeg. Thanks for the link, it's about time I learn more about fiberglassing!

 

[fisherman]

With the weight of the boat landing on the rudder the load has gone somewhere. Inside is the rudder stock held in a bearing? Something stops it from moving up and lifting out of the skeg, and that's where the load went. I would be applying load upwards and sideways to rudder and skeg, have someone inside, and see what's moving, look at the crack all the while. Bit of 4x2 for a lever should do it. Rake out the crack is it just a bit of over thick gel coat or deeper failure, can you see mat?
But in the end insurance is the answer. How many times have you seen diatribes on here about boats having a grounding and not being lifted and inspected? (Yeah, Ok, that's a fin keel bolts thing).

 

[vas]

The boat is new to me so I don't know when the crack happened. Best-case scenario, the skeg is flexing under load (or during this incident) and just cracked the anti-fouling. I'll sand down the crack when I next get to the boat to assess the situation. Maybe I'm wrong, but my instinct is that the rudder would've suffered far more damage if the loads were so big as to crack the skeg. Thanks for the link, it's about time I learn more about fiberglassing!

engineeringwise, it wouldn't need any major forces to crack up there tbh. Rudder pushing back, bearing trying to move leverage on the skeg means the crack is larger aft smaller on the front end of the skeg.
Fingers crossed it's just a/f, personally doubt it.
OTOH, it's nothing really difficult to address tbh. f/b is an easy material to work with (if not itchy, dirty, smelly, etc..)

 

[Neeves]

Well spotted Stemar.

If you are doing repairs your self and repair the skeg to hull joint you will need to grind down to the underlying glass and then epoxy and glass to the base glass. You will need a decent overlap for the new glass and it will need to be faired to the hull and skeg - not difficult. You will note that the two sides of the rudder have split slightly and you can see how the two sides of the rudder have been joined together - this would normally be covered with glass tape (to reinforce the 2 sides of the rudder).

You can do all of this yourself (but why have insurance if you will not use it?).

If you go the insurance route - make sure you are clear as to what is going to be done - if you do not understand or are concerned it is not enough - ask here, that's what the forum is for.

If you decide to go the DIY route:

Start a new thread, reintroduce the situation, with photos - or refresh this thread.. You will get the advice you need here, and more. People will take you through the process in easy steps. You may need to take photos as you progress - people here will need the maximum of information. Its very difficult for us to comment if bits of information are missing - you are doing well so far! I think your major problem is taking the rudder off, drying it and then effecting repairs (ideally done at home). Its March - plenty of bad weather for you before summer, better now than have this same issue at the end of June

I understand this is all a bit new and a major disappointment and worry. None of this is rocket science its nothing that cannot be rectified.

If you mention where you are physically located - there might be members here nearby - who have the necessary knowledge and skill. I'm more than happy to come and help you, just cover my return travel expenses

Jonathan

 

[Hermit]

I would also recommend that, if you think that the insurance may be involved at any stage, before you do any major scraping away and investigation that you get a surveyor to look. At the very least, take lots of photos before starting. Otherwise, how will any insurance assessor know what was the damge caused by the incident and what is as a result of you grinding gelcoat and antifoul away?

 

[Shanty]

I wonder about the joint between the hull and the skeg. Is that water definitely coming from the rudder stock tube, or from the joint? It looks as though the skeg was a separate moulding attached to the hull. There is the possibility that the attachment has been compromised.

I would suggest you have the damage inspected by a surveyor before you take any further action.

As an aside, who owns the failed mooring? Maybe their insurer is liable?

 

[sailoppopotamus]

engineeringwise, it wouldn't need any major forces to crack up there tbh. Rudder pushing back, bearing trying to move leverage on the skeg means the crack is larger aft smaller on the front end of the skeg.
Fingers crossed it's just a/f, personally doubt it.
OTOH, it's nothing really difficult to address tbh. f/b is an easy material to work with (if not itchy, dirty, smelly, etc..)

Point taken, it's a long rudder, leverage and all that. I have to ensure the skeg is sound, losing it would be absolutely catastrophic.

If you mention where you are physically located - there might be members here nearby - who have the necessary knowledge and skill. I'm more than happy to come and help you, just cover my return travel expenses
Jonathan

Thank you Jonathan, that is really very kind of you. I'm still reluctant to go down the insurance road -- I'll have to if the damage turns out to be as severe as it looks it might have to though. The boat is in Lavrio in Greece.

I would also recommend that, if you think that the insurance may be involved at any stage, before you do any major scraping away and investigation that you get a surveyor to look. At the very least, take lots of photos before starting. Otherwise, how will any insurance assessor know what was the damge caused by the incident and what is as a result of you grinding gelcoat and antifoul away?

I'm a bit reluctant at this stage to bring a surveyor in -- will they be able to tell me what's needed, or will I pay just to be told "you have to drop the rudder and scrape everything off before I can give any specific advice". I think the best approach is to sand down the heel-to-skeg joint to establish whether it's just superficial paint cracking or something more structural. If it's structural I'll bring in a surveyor and start thinking about claiming insurance.

I wonder about the joint between the hull and the skeg. Is that water definitely coming from the rudder stock tube, or from the joint? It looks as though the skeg was a separate moulding attached to the hull. There is the possibility that the attachment has been compromised.

I would suggest you have the damage inspected by a surveyor before you take any further action.

As an aside, who owns the failed mooring? Maybe their insurer is liable?

I have no idea how the skeg is attached to the hull, I don't recall any bolts inside the boat but it's probably a separate moulding attached without bolts. The possibility that the attachment has been compromised is definitely a very worrying one. For what it's worth I'm pretty sure the water was coming down from the rudder stock tube, not the joint, and was told by a local boat owner that this happens to all boats. At any rate, I really don't want to bring the owner of the failed mooring into this.

Thanks to everybody that has responded to my post. I'm very new to sailing and very grateful to this community. I've learned so much by just lurking here and hope I'll be able to usefully contribute to it. I'll visit the boat on Wednesday to try to form a clearer picture of the situation.