Route planning for a Motor Boat - overnight stops

[alandalus11]

Blimin heck, up to 30,000 miles. Where are you going?????

 

[efanton]

There really is no need for any software to help plan for the inland waterways. Once you are past the tidal section of the Seine up to Paris your progress is governed by the number of locks in any section (remembering that in many canals they only operate in the morning and afternoon) . The more locks, the less distance covered in a day. This is hugely variable depending on the type of waterway and whether your aim is to cover as much distance as you can in the time or enjoy the territory you are passing through. You also need to take into account that winter travel is often not possible because of closures for repairs and in summer can be restricted because of lack of water. There is more than enough material in printed form and on line to help you plan.

You don't say what sort of boat you are planning to use,, but if you choose a displacement boat fuel consumption is a direct function of the hours run and given the speed restrictions likely to be modest, maybe in the 3-5L/h depending on the size of the boat.

Again I am aware there appears to be no need to make a hard and fast plan.
I made that clear in my initial post. I even anticipated a reply similar to yours

"I know some of you will say why are you doing this now, just go when you are ready and stop as and when you have to.
My answer is simply this, I want to cover as much of the river and canal systems in Europe as I possibly can in two to three years, so I have to have a fairly good estimate of how long I can stay in each country but also as Diesel will be one of my biggest costs how much will I need to budget for that. Without an outline plan (which obviously will change at some point) I cannot do either."

As above all I am doing at this point is simply taking one country at a time, plotting a route and estimating how many days it would require and estimating how much diesel would be required. Then moving on to the next country, rinse and repeat,

The boat will be a 35 foot Dutch Steel Cruiser, with a 75 hp engine consuming approx. 5 to 6 litres per hour at about 5 knots (I will not be traveling at full throttle). Planning as I have on paper, I have been planning based on no more than 5 to 6 hours cruising per day allowing 30 minutes per lock.
I intend to use a marina about once every 7 to 10 days (laundry, provisioning, city visits etc) for just one or possible two nights.
As for winter months plan is to either moor up in a marina and live aboard for a few months or leave it there and fly home to Ireland,

I can continue to do it as I am but its so time consuming. I have put in about 30 hours now just for France and still not happy with the results, So many places I would like to see, but I know that to see everything would mean making serious compromises in other countries. There's Belgium, Holland, Germany, Poland, possibly Czech Republic, and all the other countries along the Rhein and Danube to do yet. I haven't bought any of the guide books yet as I thought it would be better to buy them prior to setting off so they were up to date rather than buying now. I think I might have to change that and simply buy the guide books and charts now as scrolling constantly for hours on end in Navionics looking for mooring points and potential hazards is doing my head in. The guide books have the advantage of suggesting suitable mooring points and highlighting hazards or potential time delays, or at least the ones I have for the UK and Ireland do so assuming this would also be the case for the European ones.

A simple app that would allow calculation based on travel time automatically suggesting mooring points for start and finish just to give a verry basic route that could then be fleshed out using Navionics and charts would make this process so much easier as my intention is obviously to reduce use of marina's as much as possible and instead using mooring points on the rivers or canal.

 

[efanton]

Blimin heck, up to 30,000 miles. Where are you going?????

Hopefully everywhere I can in Europe that can be reached by boat over a 2 to 3 year period
1000 days is a whole lot of travel

 

[efanton]

I think that you are over planning. Everyone I have met who have used the French canals found that any plan soon went wrong from to much water too to little. Both stop progress and or cause diversions so time and fuel go out of the window, so to speak.

I know that you mentioned about not seas or oceans, but I have planned to go to certain places whilst sailing and ended up elsewhere, not due to weather but because meeting people and chatting and then visiting different places.

Totally get that. As I said this is not going to be a hard and fast schedule.

But as I want to cover so much of Europe and there will be so many miles covered I need to know what is feasible in the time I have, and roughly how much diesel its going to require (that and marina's being the biggest costs). Also it would be so easy to spend so much time in France and Holland that I would worry I do not leave enough time for the Danube, not forgetting I have to get back to France at the end.

A basic outline plan for each country, estimating how may days and how much fuel used in each is all I am going for at the moment.

 

[ylop]

Blimin heck, up to 30,000 miles. Where are you going?????

He’s no idea that’s why he is looking for an app!

I haven't bought any of the guide books yet as I thought it would be better to buy them prior to setting off so they were up to date rather than buying now.

It does seem a bit remiss to complain that no app exists for your niche use and you are spending ages researching when there is a book that’s done the hard work already!

There was a software (canalplan.uk) I used years ago on the UK canals that would calculate on time travelled per day.

Presume you’ve found CanalPlan AC which claims to be the evolution of that site into other parts of the world?

I knew I was going to get a barrage of unhelpful posts giving me advice by people assuming that I had no clue as to what I was doing, or answering questions not asked that I already had considered and resolved,

Were you looking for solutions or an argument because whilst a few people have been a bit blunt to you, your response seems rather hostile: when someone says it’s not supposed to be a challenge and you say you want a challenge but in the next breath say it’s too hard!

However if there really is nothing and there is demand you could use your retirement to create a new offering - there won’t be many people who have visited as much of the network as you will have by the time you finish.

 

[efanton]

Your 10000 miles a year is probably unrealistic, particularly if you are using the rural French canals where 20 miles a day would be good going as would 200 days a year. Also not sure there are 30000 miles of accessible navigable waterways without a substantial amount of backtracking.

I can see why an app would work on the UK system because it is intensively used and huge amounts of data are available. Neither of these conditions apply across the European inland waterways system. There may be something for the more densely used sections but difficult to see how that would have any advantage over the printed sources.

I agree, I doubt such an app exists for Europe but if it did exist I would imagine someone here would know about it, that's why I am here. That canalplanAC in the UK was brilliant

The 15000 to 30,000 simply comes from the fact that I would want to travel a minimum of 15 miles a a day but not more than 30 miles a day. Times 1000 days and you get that very rough but probably very inaccurate estimate.

Obviously that is part of the whole reason for what I am doing now. To get an outline plan that is both reasonable but also gives me a more accurate estimate of distance travelled and fuel used.

 

[Tranona]

I agree, I doubt such an app exists for Europe but if it did exist I would imagine someone here would know about it, that's why I am here. That canalplanAC in the UK was brilliant

The 15000 to 30,000 simply comes from the fact that I would want to travel a minimum of 15 miles a a day but not more than 30 miles a day. Times 1000 days and you get that very rough but probably very inaccurate estimate.

Obviously that is part of the whole reason for what I am doing now. To get an outline plan that is both reasonable but also gives me a more accurate estimate of distance travelled and fuel used.

But you are not going to be able to do 1000 days in 3 years - lucky to be able to do much more than half that. By your own admission you are likely to park up for the winter and even in the summer you won't want to be on the move 7 days a week.

Realistically doubt you will do France in less than a year - a year for the low countries and a year for Germany.

Back to fuel - as I said this is a direct function of hours run so the easiest cost to predict. 200 days a year, 25l a day is 5000l. Also 1000 hours on the engine so probably 5 oil changes. Likewise domestic (food) costs - roughly the same as living at home. Mooring costs more difficult because of the huge variation depending on where you are. However suspect you will find the majority of nights free when you are on the move.

Surely at this point in planning you only really need to get the basic shape of what is feasible in the time you have available rather than getting bogged down in detail. Then choose your first year, give it a go and then decide where you want to go next. a year's experience of what is possible for you is far more valuable than any mechanistic app.

 

[efanton]

He’s no idea that’s why he is looking for an app!

It does seem a bit remiss to complain that no app exists for your niche use and you are spending ages researching when there is a book that’s done the hard work already!

Presume you’ve found CanalPlan AC which claims to be the evolution of that site into other parts of the world?

Were you looking for solutions or an argument because whilst a few people have been a bit blunt to you, your response seems rather hostile: when someone says it’s not supposed to be a challenge and you say you want a challenge but in the next breath say it’s too hard!

However if there really is nothing and there is demand you could use your retirement to create a new offering - there won’t be many people who have visited as much of the network as you will have by the time you finish.

Sorry wasn't being aggressive (certainly did not intend to be) but I tried to be a clear as possible as to what I was looking for and why in my initial post.
I appreciate people trying to share their knowledge but I would hope that would be restricted to answering or commenting on the question asked.

As stated in my post, what I am doing is extremely time consuming but I also said I was prepared to continue spending the time as I have been doing. Its not too hard, just very time consuming. If there's a tool to make a job easier you would be a fool not to to use it. All I was seeking is to find out is does such a tool exist.

Yes I know, buying the guides would have made it easier, but as I said I was more interested in having those guides up to date when I do start my journey. Think I am just going to have to buy them, and shell out yet again if they are updated later.

I never thought to use Canalplan AC as when I was using it it years ago it only covered the UK to my recollection.
Have just given it a try for the Honfluer to Paris route and it seems to give reasonable results. Will have to tweek the settings but its useable as a estimate for time and distance travelled in a day. It doesn't seem to have any idea about mooring points or marina's but I will dig deeper, if not its still useful.
Thank you so much for pointing out it now has some ability now on European waters.

 

[ylop]

You might want to check out open street map for details. It is variable how much detail is added (it relies on people wanting to update it out of community spirit) - but certainly round here moorings, water points etc are available if you can work out which layers to show.

 

[dunedin]

Firstly have you got a solution lined up for the Schengen 90/180 days impacting most UK residents in EU?

And if got that sorted

Forget worrying about Apps and join the Cruising Association and their European Inland Waterways Section.
The have loads of people who cruise these waters every year and have written loads of guides to all the waterways.

PS. Don’t treat passage planning as “time consuming” or a “chore”. Time spent doing the research should be a pleasure, and an investment. The actual passage will pass so quickly the preparation should be part of the joy. If not you are aiming for disappointment and perhaps should look for a different pastime.

 

[efanton]

But you are not going to be able to do 1000 days in 3 years - lucky to be able to do much more than half that. By your own admission you are likely to park up for the winter and even in the summer you won't want to be on the move 7 days a week.

Realistically doubt you will do France in less than a year - a year for the low countries and a year for Germany.

Back to fuel - as I said this is a direct function of hours run so the easiest cost to predict. 200 days a year, 25l a day is 5000l. Also 1000 hours on the engine so probably 5 oil changes. Likewise domestic (food) costs - roughly the same as living at home. Mooring costs more difficult because of the huge variation depending on where you are. However suspect you will find the majority of nights free when you are on the move.

Surely at this point in planning you only really need to get the basic shape of what is feasible in the time you have available rather than getting bogged down in detail. Then choose your first year, give it a go and then decide where you want to go next. a year's experience of what is possible for you is far more valuable than any mechanistic app.

Plan is is to stay moving while I can, but in Europe Many of the locks and canals shutdown for a few months for maintenance. If I can bypass them or work around those restrictions I will. The rivers don't have restrictions generally but obviously floods may pose problems. Much of my planned route will be by river so while I will not be moving all 1000 days it will certainly be far higher than 500 days.

I reckon at the moment that I should be able to Start in France, and be through Belgium or Luxemburg before the winter sets in. Spend 4 months of the next year in Holland, and the rest in Germany slowly making my way down to the Danube, and the final year doing the long trip along the Danube and hopefully getting back to France before the year is out ((although I am now having serious doubts about whether that is even feasible which is why I need that rough outline plan)

this might surprise you but I am not a millionaire. The boat will be paid for, fully serviced and fitted with all the necessary requirements for such a voyage, there will be a €10,000 fund set aside for the unexpected, tolls, licenses, engine maintenance etc and a budget of €10,000 for diesel, but for the most part I will be travelling on a €360 a week budget as that is what my pension and savings will allow. Sounds like a lot of money but it seriously isn't. Its going to be a no frills adventure but I am prepared for that. An electric bicycle to get me around while not on the boat, no guided tours, little eating out in restaurants or the other costly tourist traps and I think that will be doable.
My only concern is that fact that it looked like what I would like to do is going to burn through that budget for diesel way before the 3 years is up,, hence the need to have a basic plan that is achievable and costed up front. My plan was to cover about 120 miles a week over about 250 days per year (more if weather and closures allowed but I thought that a reasonable estimation)

I like the way you calculated that, far easier than the way I did it, Will have to sit down and recalculate using your method and see what is achievable within my budget.

 

[efanton]

Firstly have you got a solution lined up for the Schengen 90/180 days impacting most UK residents in EU?

And if got that sorted

Forget worrying about Apps and join the Cruising Association and their European Inland Waterways Section.
The have loads of people who cruise these waters every year and have written loads of guides to all the waterways.

PS. Don’t treat passage planning as “time consuming” or a “chore”. Time spent doing the research should be a pleasure, and an investment. The actual passage will pass so quickly the preparation should be part of the joy. If not you are aiming for disappointment and perhaps should look for a different pastime.

No need to worry about Schengen, I'm Irish so can travel and stay as long as I wish in Europe

Will definitely look into the Cruising Association suggestion. Thanks for that.

I actually am enjoying the passage planning. Its the time taken that's killing me at the moment. Especially the time to find suitable mooring spots that fit in with my schedule. Its a long journey and losing a mile here and a mile there all adds up on such a long journey and it would be a shame to have to cancel sections of it. What I am finding difficult is maybe the way I approached the whole thing, I set out with an estimate off 120 miles a week. (approx 25 miles a day). The problem is mooring spots are not evenly spaced out at 25 mile intervals so some days you have to do less others more. I'm trying to plan for at least 20 miles a day and no more than 30 miles a day but still keeping to that average of 120 miles a week. I thought that would be easy but its not as simple as it first sounds. So it is challenging and enjoyable at the same time. Obviously if I can speed up the process that would be welcome which is why I asked about an app that plans based on daily travel distance or time cruising.

Obviously I am trying not only to plan the general route but also research what might be interesting to see along the way and allow for that as well. Unfortunately I only have about 10 hours a week where I can hide away from other commitments to work on my dream. I have plenty of time though as I still have another 5 years before I can set off.

Basically all I want is a general plan, to know my fuel budget is realistic and that I can fit in as much of everywhere I would like to go in the time I have. The plan can and probably will change once I set off, but that's ok, knowing that I have the fuel budget and general plan correct in place before hand will allow me to adapt to changing circumstances.

 

[dunedin]

…

Will definitely look into the Cruising Association suggestion. Thanks for that.
….

Coincidentally this just popped up on Facebook with this link - European Inland Waterways Section Seminar | CA

 

[Seastoke]

Are you travelling alone.

 

[Boathook]

No need to worry about Schengen, I'm Irish so can travel and stay as long as I wish in Europe

Will definitely look into the Cruising Association suggestion. Thanks for that.

I actually am enjoying the passage planning. Its the time taken that's killing me at the moment. Especially the time to find suitable mooring spots that fit in with my schedule. Its a long journey and losing a mile here and a mile there all adds up on such a long journey and it would be a shame to have to cancel sections of it. What I am finding difficult is maybe the way I approached the whole thing, I set out with an estimate off 120 miles a week. (approx 25 miles a day). The problem is mooring spots are not evenly spaced out at 25 mile intervals so some days you have to do less others more. I'm trying to plan for at least 20 miles a day and no more than 30 miles a day but still keeping to that average of 120 miles a week. I thought that would be easy but its not as simple as it first sounds. So it is challenging and enjoyable at the same time. Obviously if I can speed up the process that would be welcome which is why I asked about an app that plans based on daily travel distance or time cruising.

Obviously I am trying not only to plan the general route but also research what might be interesting to see along the way and allow for that as well. Unfortunately I only have about 10 hours a week where I can hide away from other commitments to work on my dream. I have plenty of time though as I still have another 5 years before I can set off.

Basically all I want is a general plan, to know my fuel budget is realistic and that I can fit in as much of everywhere I would like to go in the time I have. The plan can and probably will change once I set off, but that's ok, knowing that I have the fuel budget and general plan correct in place before hand will allow me to adapt to changing circumstances.

Any thing can happen to costs in the next 5 years. How much do you allow for inflation and will your pension increase by the same rate ?
It's nice to have a plan and places to visit and stop at, but what is good or bad now could be totally different in 5 to 8 years. I've found it bad enough over a 2 year period in the past !

 

[Billy Blue]

I prefer to plan using a chart, though once on route I'm using a chart plotter.

@Billy Blue that link looks good but you only seem to be able to a section at a time rather than put in a start point on the north coast and a finish point on the south coast and for it to give a route.

Correct. One of the limitations of it.

 

[[70521]]

My brain was thinking something similar but would have worded it a little more tactfully!

I thought @PaulRainbow was being quite restrained.

One of the great joys of being on the water is passage planning from the comfort of your favourite table at home, ideally with a glass of your favourite malt, other intoxicating liquors are available.

Personally, I find apps pretty rubbish as I don't like peering into a tiny screen, a PC is just about doable and should supplement a decent pilot book(s).

 

[Momac]

No need to worry about Schengen, I'm Irish so can travel and stay as long as I wish in Europe

How lucky you are .

I love travelling in my own boat,
But travelling every day for 4 hours or so might become a bit tiresome.
You will probably find some places you really like and stop for a week at a time. On the other hand while you are stopped the problem of battery power arises . I suggest solar panels but you may also want a generator.
Then there is the laundry . You will need to do that every couple of weeks if not more often and that going to need a while stopped with access to a marina or a town with a launderette.

Of course you can't just stop anywhere and expect to find a launderette (or a supermarket) so you will want to deal with all that domestic stuff while you are near such a facility.

You will do a lot of engine hours so you will need some filters . I expect you will need to buy the oil as you go, I trust you can do an oi change yourself. If oil change intervals are every 100 hours that means an oil change every month or so. Don't forget to take fuel filters and spare belts too. Dont forget to budget for the servicing as well as fuel.

 

[Alicatt]

Canal Plan AC ( CanalplanAC - Canal Route Planner ) does a reasonable route planning and timing for transits of the inland waterways of the UK and the EU, it will give times and distances but it is a bit limited in details on what is along the waterways. I use it as a first instance to see if a route is feasible within the time limit I have.
I use the Waterkaarten App ( Waterkaarten App | UK, NL, BE, DE & FR ) to fine tune stops etc. and it is updated regular with notices to mariners, I already had Navionics on a chartplotter from a previous boat and I have C-Map on a Simrad Go9 which came with my current boat both are ok but Waterkaarten has much better coverage and detail of what is available along the waterways and the info is much easier to retrieve from the App (runs on PC, iPhone/pad,/Android )and has coverage of France, UK, Belgium, Netherlands, Germany, Denmark.

I used it to take our boat back from Volkerak Sluis on Hollands Deep, Netherlands, to Kerkhoven in Belgium, we covered 200km if you include the side trips we took to look at things and it took us three and a half days for the cruise, limiting was the speed limit on some of the canals and not just the speed of the boat also the wash/wake from her, while she can cruise comfortably at 15km/h the wash reaching the banks of the narrower canals could be excessive, and if we pressed on the wash could top the banks and flood the tow path there is a limit of a 30cm wave on the bank

 

[Alicatt]

Its a long journey and losing a mile here and a mile there all adds up on such a long journey and it would be a shame to have to cancel sections of it.

We got stuck at Sluis 12 on the Zuidwilliamsvaart for half a day due to a tree stuck in the gates of Sluis 13 you do have to take those kind of things in to account