rounding up problem in higher winds

[arfa]

This weekend was a bit livelier with the winds so my mainsail was fully reefed and the genoa significantly reduced. However my little beneteau 211 was a real handful going to windward. I had to fight to keep her from rounding up which basically consisted of pointing higher to the wind to prevent the wind from knocking her over and round up in an uncontrolled fashion. I suspect that my only solution is the "solent rig" or genoa only in higher winds as I can't reef the main further and I am clearly overcanvassed.
I put as much tension on the backstay as I could which helped but it is a little disappointing to be struggling with a force 5.
My question is whether any forumites have any suggestions for doing things differently to avoid this. I suspect it is as much to do with the sail plan of my little boat but I don't want to be limited to force 5 when sailing. Any suggestions other than "get a proper boat" gratefully received /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

 

[FullCircle]

Have another set of reefing points put in the main?

Wouldn't be too expensive, on my 35ft they only charged me 50 quid

 

[Bav34]

A reefed main has to be as flat as possible. Are you sure that the main halyard was on literally as tight as possible? Same with the outhaul/reefing pennant. REALLY tight. Then let the main down the track as far as possible so that the luff is being backwinded by the genny. Doesn't look too pretty but gives you the drive necessary to get through the waves generated by the strong wind.

Oh, and loads of kicker on.

 

[benjenbav]

Maybe angle the mast back a bit - or forward. (It's a long time since I set up a sailboat rig and after a long day's work I am struggling with putting one foot in front of the other!)

 

[webcraft]

You haven't said what reefing arrangment you have on the genoa. Is it roller furling and if so how much of the genoa was furled away? How many reef points are fitted to the main>

These boats have a good reputaton as a small cruiser-racer, and if they can't hold their own going to windward in a F5 I would be very surprised. A certain amount of weather helm - perhaps up to the point of feeling more comfortable with two hands on the tiller - would usually be considered acceptable with a boat of this type when making progress to windward in a fresh breeze.

- W

 

[misterg]

Are you sure you hadn't over-sheeted the main?

Did you try easing the main sheet / traveller in the gusts to 'feather' the main?

I experienced similar problems on out 22' Newbridge Venturer, but found I was guilty of over-sheeting the main. Once I had learned this, I could keep the boat beautifully balanced, and it kept it's course through gusts. This feels much more in control.

Andy

 

[Lakesailor]

I've always thought the 211 to be very tender. In the pic below we sailed comfortably in our Foxcub18 and even tried our début spinnaker on the way home. Probably no more than a stiff 3, maybe 4.

The 211 was well over, although carrying full sail. Perhaps it's just the way they are

 

[Twister_Ken]

Get weight up to windward, feather the main down on the traveller, luff up in the gusts. Or get a better boat!

 

[Marmalade]

If you're rounding up you may need more drive from the headsail and less from the main - think about how the boat is pivoting about its axis. Try de powering the main a little and rolling out a little more genoa. This may give you a better balance.

Having said that, Ken has a point (whilst a little harshly made) that maybe the boat is at the limit of its performance envelope.

 

[Rob_Webb]

How much backwinding did you have in the main? Having done all the stuff here to flatten it as much as possible, ease the mainsheet until it backwinds - constantly not just occassionally. In strong conditions I can have over 50% of my main continuously backwinding. Full-length battens also help by keeping the the remaining working part of the sail in reasonable shape whilst the leading part is backwinding.

I wouldn't take much away from the pic of the blue boat below - it's heeled over way too much for what are clearly light conditions (no sign of white caps on the water). It too is very tender and over-canvassed for the conditions.

 

[BAtoo]

I agree with the comments above about flattening the main, letting down to leeward is essential - only ease the main when its rightt down the track or you make matters worse by putting fullness back in the main.

You dont say how many reef points - if only 2 you may need 3. Essential when you reef that you keep foot tension on by leading the reef well aft after going thro the sail.

Have you luff flatteners in the genoa if not your genoa will be baggy.

If all else fails it may be that your sails are shot and too full & cant be flattened.

Just had this with our new to us Bene310 - old crap sails and rounding up in gusts despite all the above and sufficient experience with Firsts to know what I am up to. New sails have transformed it; now just got to get rid of the 3-bladed bucket of a propeller & hopefully we will go even better!!

 

[arfa]

Thank you for all your replies.
I only have two reefing points and it is now obvious from your responses that these are not deep enough on the mainsail to depower it sufficiently for the conditions. I don't have a traveller for the main so I am a bit limited here on the backwinding option. I do think I probably am guilty of oversheeting the main though but I can control the gusts through feathering the main and luffing up a touch - the rounding up problem happens mainly when I let less experienced crew helm in slightly blowy conditions although I am sympathetic to the problem as it is a struggle to control /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
The genoa is roller furling and I would only furl around a third of it to try and compensate for the rounding up forces.
I put lots of tension on the backstay, the mainsail is as taught as I can get it on all points and the kicker hard in. I did not try it but I wonder if one option for depowering the main would be to release some tension off the kicker ?
As the photo shows the first 211 is undoubtedly a light boat and you can easily reach theoretical hull speed in a force 2-3 - this is clearly a lighter wind boat but and I sail her accordingly. However I do need to have confidence that if the forecast is wrong and blows up to a force 6-7 I can safely adjust canvas and head for home.
Ideally it would be a case of just getting a higher reefing point but some of your suggestions lead me to conclude that my sails are shot (they're a little old and tired) as flattening the main beyond a certain point is a struggle. I am encouraged by the observation that a new set of sails helped solve the problem so I'd better get myself to work to earn the money to pay for a new set rather than a new boat /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[wotayottie]

The boat rounds up when it heels too much. New sails will slightly improve the ratio of forward push to heeling, but for what it costs I would first be inclined to try an extra reef.

Need to be realistic - a boat of this sort (a fun boat, a big dinghy if you like) is always going to be a problem when the wind gets up. I had a Hunter 26 once, that was exactly like you describe, and that boat had new sails with adequate reefs. Couldnt win long term cos the boat was so easily driven and with high topsides it wasnt really possible to reef down enough to prevent rounding and heavy weather became a motoring time.

 

[SteveA]

I have a 217 which is only 2 years old and find that in stronger winds i.e. up to F6 (I wouldn't like to be out in anything stronger) I can balance the boat using the second reef so would suggest the idea of new sails is a good one. These boats are very light and do need weight on the rail to perform well - I try to have a crew of 4 when there are strong winds and have been able to get her planing!
Have fun!

 

[martindinham]

I used to have a First 24, which has a fairly similar hull shape to the 211. The key seemed to be to keep it as flat as possible upwind. Once I had everything (outhaul, kicker, backstay) on as hard as possible, playing the mainsheet like you would in a dinghy was the way ahead.

 

[weaver_fish]

Can you fit a traveller? It is a primary sail control and essential to keep good sheet tension to point, whilst depowerering. Also you could try and twist off the top of the genoa by adjusting the car position - again, lots of sheet tension for point, but a really open slot between the main and the headsail will help you keep her flat.

I looked at buying a 211 and remember reading somewhere about a guy who had bonded some lead to the floor around the keel case which helped considerably.

You may find the best solution is to have a blade jib made to fit your exisiting foil and when the forecast is lots of breeze just change down before you set off. My Dehler 22 was similarly tender in F4/5 but went superbly once I had a really nice flat job made with a high-cut foot.

 

[beneteau_305_553]

Incorrect weight distribution can cause this.

If the centre of gravity of the boat is behind the centre of resistance then the boat will pivot about the centre of reistance. So on these high performance boats in high winds the crew should be on the rail abeam of the keel and not in the cockpit.

 

[arfa]

Interesting point that I'd overlooked in terms of weight distribution - we had three "above UK median weight" blokes on the cockpit rail sheltering from the British summer /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
I think it would be a major job to fit a traveller but I will look into it as it is another point of control.
I am not sure about pimping my keel although I agree it is a good idea and I note that some of the mini transats have similar hull forms but much bigger keels - it would certainly help with the righting moment.
Right I am off to search for forum recommended sail lofts and no doubt I'll be back with a question on that one after the search facility has been used
/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif
Anyway a big thank you to you all for your replies - lots of food for thought and suggestions for better sailing
/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif