Round up or bear away??

[Petercatterall]

Just read the very lengthy thread about how to avoid the tendancy to round up.
As a pretty novice sailor I had just been starting to feel confident on this weather helm business and now I'm back to square one.
I feel much more in control when I have trimed the boat so that a sudden increase in wind will tend to make the boat round up rather than bear away.
I had a couple of experiences where the boat was spun around completly out of control (and much to SWIMBOS concern)
I assumed that my (over large ??) genoa was the cause and have, since then, always set things up so that, if anything, the boats balance will favour rounding up.
I have even thought that I may set the mizzen so that with the full genoa out the rounding up tendancy would be maintained.
Do I have to go back to square one with my thinking on this.
Help!! (But please no upside down children on seesaws!!)

 

[Lakesailor]

I think somewhere amongst the seesaws and the underwater profiles the opinion that a touch of weather helm and a tendancy to round-up rather than fall over seems to be best.
The way I read most of the thread was that some boats tended to round up regardless of what they were being told to do.
In extremis it's better to come to a halt than to fall over.
Bearing away helps me if I reckon a wind shift is coming with the gust as it keeps me on the wind, but if you are trying to maintain a course it's a bit counterproductive.
If I really can't control a gust a little off the mainsheet usually helps.

 

[Guest]

Here's my tuppence worth for others to shoot down. The answer is: it depends.

If beating to windward, I would luff up and/or dump the mainsheet if things get overpowering.

Anywhere with the wind abaft, if you turn suddenly into the wind you will experience a sudden increase in windspeed, and the keel will tend to trip the boat up if you turn suddenly, so if anything turn a bit further from the wind. If you're already running downwind and an overpowering gust hits you, then try to keep the boat going as straight as possible, as wavering to one side or the other may cause a broach. You just have to let it pass and then reduce sail as soon as possible to keep the boat under control.

If you're beam reaching, then you can either luff up or bear away. If you luff up, do it steadily. If it's an emergency, then dump the mainsail at the same time.

A fast boat like a catamaran will tend to be better if you bear away rather than luff up, unless you're already close hauled, otherwise the increases in apparent windspeed will make it tae off like scalded cat, which is what it is.

 

[aitchw]

Don't misunderstand the reason for the question in the other thread. The problem there was not the tendency to round up but the force with which the boat wants to do it. If you have found a set up that keeps that within controllable/comfortable limits then you've already won.

On my boat, the one being discussed in that thread, the weather helm is so severe that when close hauled especially, a gust would be enough to overpower the rudder causing it to stall releasing the boat from any constraint so she rounds up vigorously.

I really would doubt the Atlanta has a weather helm problem that couldn't be sorted by normal tuning methods.

So, no, you don't have to go back to square one. You have, from the sound of it, some weather helm (which is good) and understand how to control it. Job done.

 

[Guest]

You have a boat that sounds under control.

You should not trim or alter rig to remove that last touch of weather-helm ... that is your safety "valve" .....

Lee-helm is dangerous ..... as is neutral ....

The other thread was about my boat and aitchw's rounding up regardless of rudder input ... mainly in squalls or increased wind gusts ... mine especially is quite unforgiving and strong ...

So don't get confused .... it sounds like you are in control and understand what is happening on your boat ...

 

[dulcibella]

Neutral helm dangerous?

Neutral helm is actually highly desirable when using a windvane self-steering gear. It won't give any difficulties when hand-steering in a decent boat - there is an undectable borderline between very slight weather helm and neutrality.

 

[Guest]

I base my comment ....

A boat with slight weather-helm ... in event of accident, fall, loss of helmsperson will round up and stall.
Neutral helm - albeit good for wind-vane gear etc. will have the boat continuing on should helmsperson fail ...

The original thread / post / item was more to do with hands on helming - not auto-helms / wind-vanes etc.

Yes I agree with you on part - on other no - as a little WH is safer.

 

[Petercatterall]

Re: I base my comment ....

Thanks guys. Good advice as ever. The 2 times when I had a bit of a fright were when sailing close hauled in a good breeze and with (I guess) quite a bit a lee helm (this lee helm was possibly 'hidden' as I am now on wheel steering?
On both occaisions a bit of extra puff and the boat was pointing the other way! after washing the ports in no uncertain manner!!
I guess that my (somewhat small rudder) had lost grip.

Since then I have tried to just maintain a bit of weather helm, this works well but means that I am not able to use the full genny. I am trying to improve my mainsail shape but may also try the mizzen to see if I can maintain weater helm with the full genny??
Thanks again guys.

 

[William_H]

Re: I base my comment ....

As I claimed in the previous discussion savage weather helm as in roundup is a resut of overpowered boat. In my case it is worse just of the wind (reach) than it is hard on the wind.
I have seen incidents albeit on smaller boats when a new skipper will try to bear away to avoid a boat on opposite tack in confined waters. The boat bears away a little then tends to round up so thaty it doesn't answer the helm and a collision results unless the helmsman is quick enough to realise he can't bear away and must tack to avoid collision.
Just reduce sail and I reckon you will find very little roundup trouble. Of course all boats should have a little weather helm. olewill

 

[ex-Gladys]

Re: I base my comment ....

If you had ever sailed a dinghy cat.... Small rudders due to speed, easy to stall out, the only way to bear away is ease the main... I've taken this lesson onto cruisers. Doesn't half help