savageseadog
Well-known member
The majority of races I've done this year have been scuppered by light or zero wind. A couple of the races were major events that cost a reasonable amount of time and money. It comes with the territory.
Round the Island Race frustration
- Thread starter ChrisN
- Start date
bedouin
Well-known member
I've sailed the same boat under both IRC and ISC rating and I come higher up the fleet on IRC - partly because the IRC is a more favourable rating but it is wrong to think the standard of ISC is that much lower.
I have a small boat so when I sail ISC I am in the last start of the day - and I can tell you the IRC start is much better both in terms of tide planning and post-race planning.
But you are still missing the point. This is not about a fair race between IRC and ISC, it is about giving the small ISC boats the best chance of a good day out for their money. I have given a number of suggestions and all the big boat sailors can do is say it would disadvantage the big boats.
And people wonder why participation in competitive sailing is going down.
flaming
Well-known member
That completely misrepresents what I have been saying.
lw395
Well-known member
No, the point is, changing the start times would hurt the well-sailed small boats much more than it would affect the bigger boats.
Last time I was anywhere near an ISC fleet in RTIR, it was mid-size boats and their lack of rules observance and boat handling were fairly shocking. I'm not talking about the finer points of rule 18, but basic things like getting in the way of a fleet about to start when their start isn't for half an hour.
Last time I was anywhere near an ISC fleet in RTIR, it was mid-size boats and their lack of rules observance and boat handling were fairly shocking. I'm not talking about the finer points of rule 18, but basic things like getting in the way of a fleet about to start when their start isn't for half an hour.
bedouin
Well-known member
It was a generatlisation and not intended to refer directly to any individual
bedouin
Well-known member
That is one place we fundamentally disagree.
Having done both I vastly prefer the earlier start time I get as IRC to that I get as ISC.
When was the last time you started in the last start?
flaming
Well-known member
Then why say "all the big boat sailors can say"....
By your metric, I sail a big boat. (Personally I struggle to call anything less than 40' "big") I've very clearly (I thought) laid out the difficulties as I see them surrounding either bringing forward or compressing the start times, or changing the order. To then say that all that has been said is that "it disadvantages the big boats" is disingenuous.
To clarify those issues... If you bring them forward (relative to HW Portsmouth) then you risk stating the first few fleets into foul tide. This is a bad idea for many reasons - but most notably that instead of allowing the fleet to spread out in the wide deep water channel you're effectively asking them to sail up a narrow corridor on either side of the Solent. In strong winds this is very fraught.
If you compress the starts to 5 minute intervals then you will need 2 start lines as it is well proven that the fleets are generally poor at clearing the line inside 5 minutes. The issues with this are numerous but include line compression if you split the line, and then that you will need to anchor a committee boat in the area of concern for large ships turning. Getting ABP to agree to that would be challenging...
And then reversing the start order... It's just a non starter. In my view it would be frankly dangerous to have whole fleets of bigger boats chasing down and overtaking the smaller boats, especially in windy years. And then the small boats would just be frustrated as they'd spend the whole of the way to the Needles getting rolled and sailing in dirt.
lw395
Well-known member
I've never started in the last start. I haven't sailed under ISCR for a long time.
But I have been beaten by a lot of well sailed smaller boats that started later than me.
I too prefer to start earlier, as in further up the size ranking. The bigger IRC boats around you are far more predictable, tending to have a fair grasp of the rules and boat handling.
It's nice to start ahead of as many muppets as possible, rather than have to overtake them as they call out 'overtaking boat keep clear' or bear down on you with their floppy roller genoas.
Starting earlier to kedge for longer in Freshwater bay doesn't appeal though.
You need to separate talking about changing your place in the sequence from sliding the whole sequence forwards against GMT.
bedouin
Well-known member
I have never had to kedge in Freshwater! The stream there is pretty light anyway and turns favourable inshore long before slack water at Hurst.
I am primarily talking about starting earlier (a) relative to tide and (b) relative to dinner time rather than relative to other boats.
BTW I don't think you have had the full RTIR experience unless you have started on the last start. It has a character all of its own but is not for the faint hearted
lw395
Well-known member
Kedging in Freshwater must have been about 20 years ago.
A light day when we'd had the kite up and down a few times before we got to Yarmouth.
But maybe we'd made good time up to that point?
Although the RTIR is different every time, I find one memories of one blur with others after a decade or so.
I can remember being so close to another boat each side just after a running start, we could have nicked their bacon rolls.
A light day when we'd had the kite up and down a few times before we got to Yarmouth.
But maybe we'd made good time up to that point?
Although the RTIR is different every time, I find one memories of one blur with others after a decade or so.
I can remember being so close to another boat each side just after a running start, we could have nicked their bacon rolls.
Iain C
Active member
lw395 you're either a troll, or arrogant. Flaming has put some very valid intelligently articulated points together as to why any change is potentially a non-starter, all you can do is sit and make comments about people claiming to represent the small boat fleets (which they haven't), without for one second actually considering the situation of some of the other contributors to the threads, and use patronising and derogatory language about people's boats, abilities and understanding, and perhaps in an indirect way, budgets. Your views on the race are clear, and if your no doubt incredible sailing ability is even only half as good as your ability to come across negatively on a forum, line honours are surely yours sir.
Triassic
Well-known member
This was my first RTI so we made a point of following the "rules" as laid out in the SI, in particular keeping clear of the start line area until our preparatory signal. I was amazed by the number of other vessels that appeared to completely disregard this, and given we were the second fleet away we're not talking about the small late starters here. There were so many of them milling around the line that we couldn't even get a sighting with thirty seconds to go. As it turned out we got a blinder of a start, but I can assure you it had nothing to do with being able to judge where the line was......
lw395
Well-known member
So the general standard of considering other competitors hasn't improved then?
Possibly this is why numbers are down. It's less fun racing when other entrants don't follow the SIs.
dragonvc
New member
I have raced in the last 8RTIR ,the first 6 races in a restored 23 ft Minitonner in class8 ISC and 5yrs in IRC in ISC we were inside the top 20% in IRC in the top half overall in IRC with 2 retirements.Last year bought 28ft cruiser racer well equipped with nearly new sail wardrobe it was first race in her last year although the boat had good form in 2016.In a small boat on a beat to the needles there is a lot of dirty air off boats up to 40 ft being poorly sailed or sails in poor condition so essential to get in clear lanes and stay in the tide this applies in light weather most but in heavier weather still applies.
This years race was interesting and yes we did complete and we know where it all went wrong,we had a good start clearing our air and getting good lanes and tide to Hurst castle boats on the island side had little pressure so switched to edge of shingles bank and should have gone much further tacking into middle of Alum bay was a disaster in that wind was dropping and tide through the bridge getting stronger continuing to tack in the tide was not working we had crossed tacks ahead of a Belgian contessa which was 12 th overall !! To our 155 overall so one andhalf hours to wriggle through the inside passage once through had to go high though with tide set kite after a couple of miles losing to assymetrics a little but got that back at St Cats with some good gibes with fluky wind,As wind filled in from behind keeping closer inshore than most overtook much bigger boats with assymetrics and also the boats further offshore.
Did well from Bembridge Ledge only one boat passed us to Ryde but stayed in touch to beat her to the finish.So happy with the race except for strategy at the Needles.The race suited my mostly ancient crew of pond sailors and enjoyed final beat to finish with tide under us.Looking back from St Cats there were only 30-40 boats behind us and these would have been the only boats left to finish.
The RTIR is an iconic race and deservedly so it requires smart sailing,precise navigation,good preparation of the boat especially a clean hull,ability to keep whole crew engaged for the entire race .FInal tip make sure you have enough food to feed the crew on board if light weather race and enough beers.
We will be back next year,the advantage for small boats is the ability to get a little bit further out of the tide especially on a beat to the finish,many small race boats are as fast with spinnaker as bigger boats and can adjust crew weight to conditions.The appeal of small boats is to measure up to bigger boats and be able to compete on a budget albeit the entrance fee is plenty but to be fair it is well organised and instructions are comprehensive but are supposed to be read,though a downtide startline confuses the more cruiser orientated boats as it was quite hard to find .
The uncertainties re weather cannot be altered,it is part of sailing and the best will cope,return of entry fees would be nice but for an event like this all the costs are up front so no joy there.
This years race was interesting and yes we did complete and we know where it all went wrong,we had a good start clearing our air and getting good lanes and tide to Hurst castle boats on the island side had little pressure so switched to edge of shingles bank and should have gone much further tacking into middle of Alum bay was a disaster in that wind was dropping and tide through the bridge getting stronger continuing to tack in the tide was not working we had crossed tacks ahead of a Belgian contessa which was 12 th overall !! To our 155 overall so one andhalf hours to wriggle through the inside passage once through had to go high though with tide set kite after a couple of miles losing to assymetrics a little but got that back at St Cats with some good gibes with fluky wind,As wind filled in from behind keeping closer inshore than most overtook much bigger boats with assymetrics and also the boats further offshore.
Did well from Bembridge Ledge only one boat passed us to Ryde but stayed in touch to beat her to the finish.So happy with the race except for strategy at the Needles.The race suited my mostly ancient crew of pond sailors and enjoyed final beat to finish with tide under us.Looking back from St Cats there were only 30-40 boats behind us and these would have been the only boats left to finish.
The RTIR is an iconic race and deservedly so it requires smart sailing,precise navigation,good preparation of the boat especially a clean hull,ability to keep whole crew engaged for the entire race .FInal tip make sure you have enough food to feed the crew on board if light weather race and enough beers.
We will be back next year,the advantage for small boats is the ability to get a little bit further out of the tide especially on a beat to the finish,many small race boats are as fast with spinnaker as bigger boats and can adjust crew weight to conditions.The appeal of small boats is to measure up to bigger boats and be able to compete on a budget albeit the entrance fee is plenty but to be fair it is well organised and instructions are comprehensive but are supposed to be read,though a downtide startline confuses the more cruiser orientated boats as it was quite hard to find .
The uncertainties re weather cannot be altered,it is part of sailing and the best will cope,return of entry fees would be nice but for an event like this all the costs are up front so no joy there.
boomerangben
Well-known member
If getting to the Needles before the tide turns is the issue, why not move the start line closer to the Needles?