Round the Island Race frustration

[bedouin]

That was literally my point... I was in a 37 foot cruiser racer that's a lot better than most of the ISC classes in the light, we had fair tide all the way to the needles and it took 11 hours and was frankly right on the limit of being fun.

....

What you need to do if you think ISC have this wrong is suggest an alternative. I've outlined why bringing the start times forward is not really a good idea, so what else do you suggest?

That is the trouble with you big boys - I would reckon RTIR in 11 hours would be a good day's sail

Your objection to bringing all start times forwards was primarily that it would disadvantage the faster boats - but not doing so disadvantages the smaller. Note also that the smaller IRC boats get a much better deal than the smaller ISC.

In fact I think the choice of weekend is partly to blame - holding it 2 weeks earlier would have given better tides

 

[flaming]

That is the trouble with you big boys - I would reckon RTIR in 11 hours would be a good day's sail

Your objection to bringing all start times forwards was primarily that it would disadvantage the faster boats - but not doing so disadvantages the smaller. Note also that the smaller IRC boats get a much better deal than the smaller ISC.

In fact I think the choice of weekend is partly to blame - holding it 2 weeks earlier would have given better tides

No, it's primarily that you cannot send any starters off into foul tide. It doesn't work. The fleet is then left with a very narrow corridor to tack up in a SW wind, and a large fleet of big boats trying to short tack up the shore has got carnage written all over it. We were sent round the island at the IRC Euros this year from the squadron line, starting into the tide and 20+ knots of breeze. There were only 30 boats and it was very, very busy. The thought of doing that with the first big boats or the multis in a normal RTI, especially when windy.... Nope.... Why would you elect to do that?

So assuming you want the 1st start about 20 min to half an hour after slack, then that leaves you with 3.5 hours for the last start, whoever it is, to get to the needles before the tide turns. Which is about what they had this year isn't it?

Again... How else do you suggest the ISC arrange things to avoid this?

 

[bedouin]

Again... How else do you suggest the ISC arrange things to avoid this?

A combination of
a) Choose a different weekend (i.e. and earlier start for everyone)
b) Fewer starts
c) Starts closer together (possibly with two start lines)
d) Change the order of the starts

Where there's a will there's a way and if they cared about the smaller boats they would find a way.

The trouble here, as in many races now, is that they are planned for the convenience of the larger boats and the smaller are unfairly penalised.

 

[flaming]

A combination of
a) Choose a different weekend (i.e. and earlier start for everyone)
b) Fewer starts
c) Starts closer together (possibly with two start lines)
d) Change the order of the starts

Where there's a will there's a way and if they cared about the smaller boats they would find a way.

The trouble here, as in many races now, is that they are planned for the convenience of the larger boats and the smaller are unfairly penalised.

a) How does that help? It's all relative to the HW time anyway?
b) I think most are agreed that it is not desirable to have bigger fleets on each start line. The starts are busy enough as it is. Especially in slightly higher entry years - and don't forget that the SIs are produced a long time before the final entry is known.
c) Ok... More interesting. I don't think you can have the starts only 5 min apart off the same line. The fleet prove year after year that significant numbers are not capable of clearing the line in 5 minutes. So if you split the line in the middle and have starts North Line and South line (a bit like the finish...) then it's possible. It does have significant practical issues though. How would you split it? If you lay a mark or a committee boat, well I'm not sure you can as it would be in the middle of the area of concern when the big ships turn. Not sure ABP would go for that... And then by reducing the length of the line you double the congestion.... Back to point b...
d) And have the big boats coming through the small boats? Upwind in 20+ knots...? I really don't think that's a good idea at all. Given that every fleet will be catching the one in front at some point it will be super busy.

But I think they do care about the smaller boats. If they didn't they would find ways of biasing the race in favour of the big boats. They don't... For example the big boats were not happy when No Mans Land fort was taken out of the course. As it was seen as a big advantage to the small boats that could then really cut the corner at Ryde. If the ISC were biased in favour of the big boats there would be a turning mark at No mans, and probably at Bridge buoy as well, to mitigate the advantage the little guys get going inshore at the needles.

 

[lw395]

That is the trouble with you big boys - I would reckon RTIR in 11 hours would be a good day's sail

Your objection to bringing all start times forwards was primarily that it would disadvantage the faster boats - but not doing so disadvantages the smaller. Note also that the smaller IRC boats get a much better deal than the smaller ISC.

....s

Sorry that's untrue.
If you move the start times forwards, the well sailed small ISC boats would face adverse tide once they've rounded the Needles.
I suggest you look at a passage plan and tides for getting a last-start boat around in the time limit.
If the time limit is 14 or 16 hours, it makes little difference when people are taking over 6 hours to do 1/4 of the course with the most favourable tide.
You can only plan for people to sail the course when it's actually sailable for them in their boat.
There are limits to what can be done for cruiser entries which don't sail adequately in light air.

 

[bedouin]

a) How does that help? It's all relative to the HW time anyway?
b) I think most are agreed that it is not desirable to have bigger fleets on each start line. The starts are busy enough as it is. Especially in slightly higher entry years - and don't forget that the SIs are produced a long time before the final entry is known.
c) Ok... More interesting. I don't think you can have the starts only 5 min apart off the same line. The fleet prove year after year that significant numbers are not capable of clearing the line in 5 minutes. So if you split the line in the middle and have starts North Line and South line (a bit like the finish...) then it's possible. It does have significant practical issues though. How would you split it? If you lay a mark or a committee boat, well I'm not sure you can as it would be in the middle of the area of concern when the big ships turn. Not sure ABP would go for that... And then by reducing the length of the line you double the congestion.... Back to point b...
d) And have the big boats coming through the small boats? Upwind in 20+ knots...? I really don't think that's a good idea at all. Given that every fleet will be catching the one in front at some point it will be super busy.

But I think they do care about the smaller boats. If they didn't they would find ways of biasing the race in favour of the big boats. They don't... For example the big boats were not happy when No Mans Land fort was taken out of the course. As it was seen as a big advantage to the small boats that could then really cut the corner at Ryde. If the ISC were biased in favour of the big boats there would be a turning mark at No mans, and probably at Bridge buoy as well, to mitigate the advantage the little guys get going inshore at the needles.

a) helps because an earlier start means an earlier finish. As the finsh cut off time is fixed then starting earlier gives the smaller boats more time to finish before the cut off.

b) The smaller boats already start in a bigger fleet - so why not get the bigger boats to start in a bigger fleet too? Also you could combine it with a longer start line broken up into sections. Different boats already finish on different lines so why not start e.g. small ISC alongside small IRC with the line split into two to save too much

c) With a favourable tide it would certainly be possible for the smaller starts to take place at 5 minute intervals - the tide itself would help to ensure the competitors cleared the lines. What you can't do is both increase the number of boats per start and decrease the start times.

I also think splitting the start line is perfectly feasible. It doesn't necessarily have to be any longer than it currently is just with a committee boat in the middle to prevent too much of a scrum at the "favoured" end.

d) They already start the larger ISC boats behind the smaller IRC don't they? So they don't see it as a problem.

Your objections, although valid of course, are all from the perspective of the larger boat and saying the smaller boats mustn't get in their way. Perhaps if you took the position that everyone has equal rights to an enjoyable race you might see things from a different perspective.

Once again I am not talking about making the race itself "fair" - that is impossible - there is no way of getting a race that is fair between boats of such widely different characteristics, but just about giving the smaller boats a reasonable chance of having a good day out.

 

[bedouin]

Sorry that's untrue.
If you move the start times forwards, the well sailed small ISC boats would face adverse tide once they've rounded the Needles.
I suggest you look at a passage plan and tides for getting a last-start boat around in the time limit.
If the time limit is 14 or 16 hours, it makes little difference when people are taking over 6 hours to do 1/4 of the course with the most favourable tide.
You can only plan for people to sail the course when it's actually sailable for them in their boat.
There are limits to what can be done for cruiser entries which don't sail adequately in light air.

I've done RTIR a few times, including in Bedouin as IRC and ISC. I much prefer the IRC start times.

Adverse tide after rounding the needles in the better wind is vastly preferable to adverse tide through Hurst in lighter winds. If I can round the needles while there is still significant tide running then (a) there is a good wind blowing anyway and (b) I can keep inshore and stay out of the worst of the tide - in fact keeping inshore you can pick up a favourable tide from needles to St Catz long before slack water at hurst.

If I were planning to sail round the island that way I would plan to leave Cowes a little after slack water to carry the favourable tide to the needles.

 

[flaming]

a) helps because an earlier start means an earlier finish. As the finsh cut off time is fixed then starting earlier gives the smaller boats more time to finish before the cut off.

An hour either way is unlikely to make a difference on the 2200 cutofff. Most years nobody finishes anywhere close to then.

b) The smaller boats already start in a bigger fleet - so why not get the bigger boats to start in a bigger fleet too? Also you could combine it with a longer start line broken up into sections. Different boats already finish on different lines so why not start e.g. small ISC alongside small IRC with the line split into two to save too much

They already do start in pretty big fleets, certainly it's by far and away the most crowded startline I hit all year. and I hate to point out the obvious but the bigger the boats the fewer you can fit on a given start line length....

c) With a favourable tide it would certainly be possible for the smaller starts to take place at 5 minute intervals - the tide itself would help to ensure the competitors cleared the lines. What you can't do is both increase the number of boats per start and decrease the start times.

Disagree. The starts all take place in favourable tide now. And the number of boats that still haven't crossed at 5 minutes after a given start is remarkable. It's all there on the tracker and the video replay of the starts if you care to look....

I also think splitting the start line is perfectly feasible. It doesn't necessarily have to be any longer than it currently is just with a committee boat in the middle to prevent too much of a scrum at the "favoured" end.

But what if ABP vetoed a committee boat in the middle of their area of concern? Which I suspect they would... And you've still doubled the density of boats on the start line.

d) They already start the larger ISC boats behind the smaller IRC don't they? So they don't see it as a problem.

No, they do not. The largest ISC boats start after group 1 IRC.

Your objections, although valid of course, are all from the perspective of the larger boat and saying the smaller boats mustn't get in their way. Perhaps if you took the position that everyone has equal rights to an enjoyable race you might see things from a different perspective.

Do you really think that the small group 7 and 8 boats would have an enjoyable day if they were swamped by several hundred comparitvely large fast race boats somewhere about hurst? I think that would up the stress levels quite considerably.

Once again I am not talking about making the race itself "fair" - that is impossible - there is no way of getting a race that is fair between boats of such widely different characteristics, but just about giving the smaller boats a reasonable chance of having a good day out.

They do have a reasonable chance of a good day out. The years in which there is enough wind for a small boat to sensibly sail around the island. Sadly that is not the case in every year.

 

[bedouin]

An hour either way is unlikely to make a difference on the 2200 cutofff. Most years nobody finishes anywhere close to then.

That is pure assumption on your part as you cannot know what motivates people to retire and when - a casual racer who is thinking of dinner is more likely to keep going to finish at 8 than 10.

But what if ABP vetoed a committee boat in the middle of their area of concern? Which I suspect they would... And you've still doubled the density of boats on the start line.

TBH the line is pretty long anyway - splitting it would just be to prevent a scrum at the favoured end

No, they do not. The largest ISC boats start after group 1 IRC.

Do you really think that the small group 7 and 8 boats would have an enjoyable day if they were swamped by several hundred comparitvely large fast race boats somewhere about hurst? I think that would up the stress levels quite considerably.

You are at it again - only considering the larger boats. We are lalking about the smaller boats here.

A Contessa26 sailing IRC starts 40 minutes before a Contessa26 sailing ISC. Whereas a Grand Soleil 40, Oceanis 31, Bavaria 38 Match etc all start after the Co26 and would expect to overhaul the smaller IRC boats pretty eariy on

If you don't want large boats sailing through small why do things that way?

 

[flaming]

You are at it again - only considering the larger boats. We are lalking about the smaller boats here.

A Contessa26 sailing IRC starts 40 minutes before a Contessa26 sailing ISC. Whereas a Grand Soleil 40, Oceanis 31, Bavaria 38 Match etc all start after the Co26 and would expect to overhaul the smaller IRC boats pretty eariy on

If you don't want large boats sailing through small why do things that way?

That's not reality...

Download the results spreadsheet. I just did that and compared the slowest IRC group - 3 (flag silver) with the ISC fleet that starts behind them 5 (flag Turquoise). The average Silver fleet elapsed time is nearly 20 minutes faster than the average Turquoise time. 11 Hours 12 min Vs 11 hours 31 min. I guarantee that if you repeated that for years with more breeze you would see the same pattern.

You will always have some of Turquoise catching some of silver, but you'd have more of silver catching more of turquoise if you started them in the reverse order.

Personally my only real beef with the start order is that if you do the same thing with my start (Group 2) and the ISC class that starts ahead of us (Group 4) you find that we in the later start are significantly faster on average, year after year.

 

[lw395]

That is pure assumption on your part as you cannot know what motivates people to retire and when - a casual racer who is thinking of dinner is more likely to keep going to finish at 8 than 10.


TBH the line is pretty long anyway - splitting it would just be to prevent a scrum at the favoured end

You are at it again - only considering the larger boats. We are lalking about the smaller boats here.

A Contessa26 sailing IRC starts 40 minutes before a Contessa26 sailing ISC. Whereas a Grand Soleil 40, Oceanis 31, Bavaria 38 Match etc all start after the Co26 and would expect to overhaul the smaller IRC boats pretty eariy on

If you don't want large boats sailing through small why do things that way?

Because most of those ISC boats are rubbish, and in fact take ages to catch the small IRC boats, by which time they are well spread out.

I don't think splitting the start line is going to work well. The next whinge would be the IRC boats get the favoured end of the line I suppose? Or would you expect some IRC starts to have a different line, in different tide to other boats in the same race?

 

[Iain C]

Because most of those ISC boats are rubbish...the next whinge...

Says it all lw395. It's a shame you can't add a bit more balance and therefore credibility to some of your comments, some of which in fairness have good grounding.

 

[lw395]

You can't avoid the fact that many of the ISC boats are rubbish at racing.
Some are floating caravans entirely unsuited to light weather racing (or heavy weather racing). Maybe they need to find some sort of Rally around the Island where they can use engines if it's light? Maybe they're quite happy as they are.
Others are simply badly sailed by people who know as little about light airs sailing as they do about the RRS.

But the handful of whingers are absolutley out of order in claiming to represent 'the small boats' or the 'slow boats'. They do not.

I don't think the RTIR is perfect, but start times are not the problem. If there is one single problem to identify, I'd say it is dangerous concentrations of numpties.
If a few of the truly clueless in AWB's give it a miss due to perceived injustice about start times that may well be for the good in the long run.

 

[flaming]

If a few of the truly clueless in AWB's give it a miss due to perceived injustice about start times that may well be for the good in the long run.

For the record I don’t think this is in any way representative of the views of the majority of racing sailors. And certainly not mine.

 

[lw395]

For the record I don’t think this is in any way representative of the views of the majority of racing sailors. And certainly not mine.

I'm sorry but it has to be said.
I am in no way involved with ISC or RTIR except as a some-time competitor.
But I have been involved in running a big event or two. The most toxic thing out there is entrants who turn up without the necessary skills or gear to do well in the event and then start whining when the event doesn't suit them. If you bend to these people, the event loses credibility at the top level and with the majority of the entrants who you rely on to com back year after year.

The whingeing we've seen from people wanting an earlier start lacks any coherent basis.
The start times were in the NOR, your choice to enter or not.
If you don't think you can get your boat round starting then, your choice to take part or not.
How many of you raised this when the NOR was published? Let me guess..None?
You didn't predict the wind weeks in advance so why do you think the race committee should?

 

[Motor_Sailor]

Well, lw395, I think you're a little harsh, but fair.

When all the stars align, the RTIR is a joyous occasion and the feel good vibe spreads far and wide. Everyone wants a bit of the action.

But the reality is the RTIR is actually quite a big deal - it's a long race with some quite challenging bits where you have to have your shit together.
When conditions are 'sub-optimal', or you're in a slow boat, or both, then it's bloody tough.

I've only ever done it in an F27 or a Sonata. The F27 was a blast in every way, the Sonata was always a tough day out, especially starting and finishing back in the Hamble. One year with a strong easterly, the beat along the bottom of the island was about the hardest long stint helming in all the racing I've done including TransAts, South China Sea Races, etc. Getting out of the tide when the Solent is not your home waters took a huge amount of planning and reconnaissance, plus OS maps, charts, guide books and one crew as a 'dedicated ' pilot.

I was always sympathetic with those after the event with those who's day hadn't worked out so well. But I was often struck however, by how woefully under prepared they were.

 

[dunedin]

So if the ISC classes are not happy, and as Flaming has pointed out moving all starts much earlier or starting the smaller boats first are unfair and or potential carnage, then the only other answer might be to split the race into two days.
Serious racers in IRC and multis on one day and ISC another.

 

[lw395]

So if the ISC classes are not happy, and as Flaming has pointed out moving all starts much earlier or starting the smaller boats first are unfair and or potential carnage, then the only other answer might be to split the race into two days.
Serious racers in IRC and multis on one day and ISC another.

Seriously, how many in ISCR are not happy?
Most I know either got around or think 'there wasn't enough wind for an enjoyable race this year, see you in 2019'. Only a few are moaning at the ISC.

 

[Iain C]

You can't avoid the fact that many of the ISC boats are rubbish at racing.
Some are floating caravans entirely unsuited to light weather racing (or heavy weather racing). Maybe they need to find some sort of Rally around the Island where they can use engines if it's light? Maybe they're quite happy as they are.
Others are simply badly sailed by people who know as little about light airs sailing as they do about the RRS.

But the handful of whingers are absolutley out of order in claiming to represent 'the small boats' or the 'slow boats'. They do not.

I don't think the RTIR is perfect, but start times are not the problem. If there is one single problem to identify, I'd say it is dangerous concentrations of numpties.
If a few of the truly clueless in AWB's give it a miss due to perceived injustice about start times that may well be for the good in the long run.

Keep digging!!

By the way who is claiming to represent the small boats?

 

[lw395]

Keep digging!!

By the way who is claiming to represent the small boats?

The OP and one or two others elsewhere. Could be the same person of course.