Rough costs: heads, heads compartment, heating, hot water, cockpit tent, delivery

[john_morris_uk]

Now you have clarified what the boat is, the advice will probably be not to bother. Delivery will be £3k+ including handling either end. The jobs listed will be approaching £8-10k.

Old boats which require "professional" ie paid for work are usually not worth it and if you can't do it yourself best left alone.

Save your money for a boat that is up together and concentrate on using it rather than working on it.

I agree - if you aren't a 'do it youself' person then an old boat in need of work is not very likely to be a good proposition. That is unless you are in the mega rich classic and restoring some classic - and even then the sums don't add up!

 

[Spyro]

Now you have clarified what the boat is, the advice will probably be not to bother. Delivery will be £3k+ including handling either end. The jobs listed will be approaching £8-10k.

Old boats which require "professional" ie paid for work are usually not worth it and if you can't do it yourself best left alone.

Save your money for a boat that is up together and concentrate on using it rather than working on it.

Definitely a lot nearer the mark, Having all those job done professionally will mean brand new parts and labour costs will far outway the finished value of the boat. Find another closer to home with all the bits you need.

 

[yodave]

Well... yes and no.

I understand what you're saying but that's all dependent on the purchase price. If for arguments sake the purchase price is £1,000 and I then spend another £10,000 - the total purchase price need not exceed the cost of buying a more modern boat with all the bits.

Also, I can spend money upgrading over a few seasons, and in that way I can spread the cost rather than one up-front lump sum.

Obviously I'm spending more than £1000, but I'd need to be a bit thick to buy a boat a thousand miles away with a similar boat at a similar price for sale just around the corner. Our perfect boat at the right price isn't for sale at present, and I don't want to wait for three years until it is.

The reason for the original question was so that I could sanity-check my figures, and avoid the very pitfall that the last few posts have highlighted.

Thank you once again for all your input.

It's all valuable food for thought!!!

 

[All The Gear No Idea]

Definitely a lot nearer the mark, Having all those job done professionally will mean brand new parts and labour costs will far outway the finished value of the boat. Find another closer to home with all the bits you need.

I agree with this sentiment too!

I reckon a new head would easily cost £2k if completely done professionally.

I too have been looking at buying an old boat not too close to home. It's had about £20k spent on it in recent years, but despite this it's still in a mess. The owner can't complete the job and the boat looks pretty bad in places. A daunting prospect to those without the skills to finish the job, still risky to those who have. A good example of this particular boat might fetch £30k on a good day, but a realistic resale value after broker's fees is anyone's guess in this economic climate. Also, who can predict what the market will be in the future!

I can get the boat and have it delivered to my location for around £15k. I have done a lot of homework and have sought numerous estimates, done my reserch etc. I've calculated that I could restore it for a further £15k-£18K, but this is with me doing at least 300hrs of work for no reward other than gaining some experience and peace of mind in knowing the condition of the boat in intimate detail. I'd have a lot of shiny new kit and all the big ticket service interval items would be new. The other consideration is that I wouldn't be parting with all the money at once, though making the project a lengthy protracted affair would detract form the whole point of the exercise - to buy a boat to go sailing in.

If there are any nasty surprises, i'll be throwing money away unless I keep the craft for a several years longer than planned, to get some enjoyment from my expenditure (which was kinda the intention anyway).

Most people haemorage cash on boats - you need deep pockets - can I afford this? Good question!

I'm wondering if I should forget taking such a gamble and save for something much better, newer etc and when my circumstances improve..

Do a bit of crewing perhaps (anyone on the east coast need a willing pair of hands ).

If I was a non-DIY type, i certainly wouldn't touch any boat other than a new/newish one. Yard charges and marine fittings are very expensive. Judging by the 15 or so older boats i've viewed, the owners appear to have had the same opinion as me on the costs of getting work done. All of these boats needed a small fortune spending on them, yet were priced as if they had been progressively maintained.

 

[dt4134]

Hi,

Thank you all for your comments; each and every one of use in some shape or form.

Some contributors have asked for more details:

The boat is a 70s grp yacht 31 ft. She's seaworthy. She has a thin cupboard where the heads ought to be, and I understand that there's no plumbing / sea cocks etc.

Me? unfortunately I'm no good at DIY, so I'd need to pay to get the work done professionally. Also, I'm new to sailing; doing my RYA day skipper theory, so making the journey over to the Forth myself [for delivery] is probably a bit unwise.

It's an old boat, and that reflects my financial position, so I don't have a lot of cash to throw around. That said, although I'd love to save a few bob, I see little point in under-estimating the likely costs, or over-estimating my abilities. Additionally, I'd like the work to be done to a professional standard - so for the heads compartment; wood and a door maybe even a sink ...rather than a curtain.

I'd really appreciate any more contributions, as this will help me form an opinion based on wider knowledge than I have.

Thanks again!

Another vote for don't bother.

It's expensive enough sorting out an old boat when you do the work yourself but employing professionals for those jobs will cost a huge proportion of the likely value of the boat.

Keep looking until you find a boat that better suits your requirements.

 

[Bobobolinsky]

If you are not capable of the repairs at the minute, it is going to be a steep learning curve. You were asking very specific questions, which sounded a little bit like a liveaboard project. The problem for me is it's a 31' with no heads, so it sounds like a racer. For me that would mean a special look at the rigging and sails before delivery. You don't have to do all the jobs at the same time. Get an elsan, get a charcoal burner, get a kettle. Start reading "This Old Boat" Don't do anything until April. Delivery later in the year is not difficult, at this time, it's not good. Ijmuiden to Hull then up the coast. There are local boats at the back of yards, if they look dilapidated then ask questions, check out ebay. Better to get something a bit smaller, maybe a trailersailor. Alacrity's, Vivacity's whatever to start

 

[narcer]

Cost Saving

I could recommend investing in a bucket with a nice rounded lip...you can do your business on this perfectly. It´s easy to maintain, you don´t need spare parts for the pump assembly etc AND it can also double up as a fire extinguisher and bilge pump all in one. Then if you really want to tighten the belt, once scrubbed out you can do the washing up in it too !

 

[yodave]

Note to self:

...refuse any invitation to dine on Narcer's boat!

 

[yodave]

Rough Costs

Thanks for all of your comments and feedback. I may not fully agree with every single one, but then there’s still value in all feedback as it can trigger debate and move the conversation along.

Best I can tell, as I’m going to assume that I will not magically become a DIY guru overnight, the likely costs are going to be something like this:

- Installation of heads £2000
- Build of separate heads compartment £750
- Heating £2500
- Hot water £1000
- Cockpit tent [aft cabin layout] £1250
- Delivery from Amsterdam to Edinburgh £3500

That lot adds-up to £11,000

Truth is though, that I can postpone the heating and hot water costs. Yes we’re in Scotland, but we’re not going to use the boat out of season, and there are other less elegant ways of accessing both heating and hot water. So that drops the budget down to £7500.

Roughly half of the remaining cost is for delivery …so if I can find a way of bringing that cost down by say 50%, from £3500 to £1750 then my short term budget might be more in the region of £5750. That would break down like this:

- Installation of heads £2000
- Build of separate heads compartment £750
- Heating £0
- Hot water £0
- Cockpit tent [aft cabin layout] £1250
- Delivery from Amsterdam to Edinburgh £1750

Budget £5750

If these assumptions are in the right sort of ballpark, then I can use that information to know where my cut-off point is on the purchase price.

Does this sound like a reasonable set of assumptions?

As before, thanks in advance for any and all comments.

 

[Tranona]

No need to guess on quotes for transport. a few emails and you will be inundated with accurate (but variable!) quotes. Simon Butler on www.boat-shift.com will give you a competitive quote.

It is all too easy to kid yourself that you can reduce budgets - just never seems to work in practice, particularly if you are paying people to do the work. Easier if you are DIY as bits are easier to predict - even if time required is not!

BTW if you are installing a loo for the first time, suggest you fit a holding tank as retro-fitting is more difficult and expnsive than working it into the layout from the start.

 

[All The Gear No Idea]

Thanks for all of your comments and feedback. I may not fully agree with every single one, but then there’s still value in all feedback as it can trigger debate and move the conversation along.

Best I can tell, as I’m going to assume that I will not magically become a DIY guru overnight, the likely costs are going to be something like this:

- Installation of heads £2000
- Build of separate heads compartment £750
- Heating £2500
- Hot water £1000
- Cockpit tent [aft cabin layout] £1250
- Delivery from Amsterdam to Edinburgh £3500

That lot adds-up to £11,000

Truth is though, that I can postpone the heating and hot water costs. Yes we’re in Scotland, but we’re not going to use the boat out of season, and there are other less elegant ways of accessing both heating and hot water. So that drops the budget down to £7500.

Roughly half of the remaining cost is for delivery …so if I can find a way of bringing that cost down by say 50%, from £3500 to £1750 then my short term budget might be more in the region of £5750. That would break down like this:

- Installation of heads £2000
- Build of separate heads compartment £750
- Heating £0
- Hot water £0
- Cockpit tent [aft cabin layout] £1250
- Delivery from Amsterdam to Edinburgh £1750

Budget £5750

If these assumptions are in the right sort of ballpark, then I can use that information to know where my cut-off point is on the purchase price.

Does this sound like a reasonable set of assumptions?

As before, thanks in advance for any and all comments.

The heating isn't a must have if you use marinas. Just use a fan heater, or oil filled radiator. Don't assume you won't need some form of heating during the season. It can get very cold in the early season and Northerlies and Easterlies can be pretty nippy, but nothing like as cold as in the depths of winter. If you want to do long passages and spend a lot of nights at anchor/mooring, the heating might be more use than you think. You could consider an LPG heater. I've seen these for around £700 at the SOuthampton boat show and they take their gas supply from the same source as your stove.

My £2k suggestion is what I would expect to pay for the whole job to be done by a professional. It may costs more/less depending on what is already there, what you want etc. Here's a rough breakdown of what I would anticipate they would do: Construct and fix head compartment, manufacture and fit door, prepare base/bilge, drill hull penetrations, fit skin fittings, fit ball valves, varnish all new teak, modify and refit headlinings, wire a light, fit a sink, connect all plumbing.

A holding tank isn't really that neccessary in the UK and would this cheap old boat warrant such a costly addition?

Knowing how much boat yards can charge, I could well be off the mark with my notion of the cost. You should speak to your chosen yard!

Aside from the costs you have highlighted, have you considered the condidtion of the standing rigging, hull (osmosis?), sails, spars, winches, running rigging, engine, wiring, batteries, etc etc.

It depends on whether you just want to go sailing, or do a refurb. I'm pretty sure it would be easy to sucked in to the process of restoring a project boat and to loose sight of what original objective was. Gilding the lilly is the term that springs to mind.

 

[All The Gear No Idea]

Re: Awnings.

I've had some quotes for a centre cockpit awning and they come in at around £1500.

I was trying to work out if it might be feasible to have a go at making one myself as the cost of the materials is around £200 (not including stainless steel). I'm still undecided on that. It comes down to time.

Last night I found a firm based in Pylmouth advertising on eBay with a link to their own website: http://nauticover.co.uk/main/ The ebay price was very competitive. They might be worth a call as they keep templates for a lot of canopies for different boats. They also will make up new from old canvass.

 

[KenMcCulloch]

, I'm new to sailing; doing my RYA day skipper theory, so making the journey over to the Forth myself [for delivery] is probably a bit unwise.

If you are new to sailing you will learn more and spend less by sailing with a variety of other skippers on a variety of boats for a couple of seasons. 'Sailing' and 'boat ownership' are not synonymous. In any event there are a variety of excellent beginners' boats for sale in the local area without having to go to Amsterdam.

 

[bendyone]

Heads for £2000

Get a portapotty until you decide what you really want.
Delivery - day hop down to coast to Calais then Dover. Then if you want trailer up north.

The above will save you loads of dosh.

 

[Fascadale]

Hi,

The boat is a 70s grp yacht 31 ft. She's seaworthy. She has a thin cupboard where the heads ought to be, and I understand that there's no plumbing / sea cocks etc.

Also, I'm new to sailing; doing my RYA day skipper theory, so making the journey over to the Forth myself [for delivery] is probably a bit unwise.

It's an old boat, and that reflects my financial position, so I don't have a lot of cash to throw around.

If you are new to sailing you will learn more and spend less by sailing with a variety of other skippers on a variety of boats for a couple of seasons. 'Sailing' and 'boat ownership' are not synonymous. In any event there are a variety of excellent beginners' boats for sale in the local area without having to go to Amsterdam.

M'learned friend Ken makes a very valid point here.

I would add that if you are fairly new to sailing it maybe an idea to purchase a smaller boat. There is plenty of day or weekend sailing with overnights in small drying harbours to be had on the Forth. A small cheap bilge keeler would be an ideal starter boat.

In our boatyard (Edinburgh) there are a couple of very suitable, and not expensive boats for sale, but not advertised. I'm sure this would be true of other yards around the country.

PM me if you want further details.

 

[Ubergeekian]

- Installation of heads £2000
- Build of separate heads compartment £750

If the heads compartment is there, installation of heads is basically purchase of toilet, hoses and sea cocks (£300), cut two holes in hull, make two bearers (if not in heads compartments as built, fit. That sounds like a day's work, maybe two. £2000 seems very high, though holding tanks and an electric toilet might do it, I suppose.

 

[Scotty_Tradewind]

Yodave....An interesting thread this.
Having done a lot of work over the past years on my boat I reckon some of the cheap prices are bang on. It comes down to the time/knowledge/inclination/personal ability to seek out, type equation.
I do have the ability in some cases, but as soon as I have to pay others to do it then the costs can quadruple.
One very large project which my son and I did was complimented on by the yard shipwright who said he would have had to charge £2.5K. Whereas my job was belt and braces, his would not have been. The materials cost me around £150.00 and I spent about 50 hours on it.
best of luck
S.

 

[V1701]

Heads for £2000

Get a portapotty until you decide what you really want.
Delivery - day hop down to coast to Calais then Dover. Then if you want trailer up north.

The above will save you loads of dosh.

Yes, Porta Potti only £40 to £70 odd, less holes in the boat and a built-in holding tank...

 

[yodave]

Thanks once again to each and every contributor.

I understand the comments about starting with a smaller boat, but there are a few reasons why we’re looking at a 31ft boat. Although a lot of the time there will be just two of us, ocassionally there will be four, or even less frequently six. It’s with this in mind that we’re looking at a slightly bigger boat.

@ All the gear, No idea: thanks for the link to the cockpit tent manufacturer. I’ll check that out …and start getting some figures together.

@ bendyone & djbreeze: There’s already a Porta Potti on the boat, but that’s in the forepeak amidst a v-berth. Bit too unsavoury for the missus.

Got a quote through to get the heads installation carried-out on the Forth. Here’s what was detailed:

1) Jabsco toilet compact bowl £149.8, or regular bowl £179.75
2) Seacocks and skin fittings £80
3) Other sikaflex, pipes, hose clips £50
4) Labour to fit toilets including seacocks and all fixture & fittings about 12hours (£25 per hour inc. vat)

So that comes in at around £300 for the bits, and £300 for the labour. Well short of £2000 so far.

On page 3 of this thread, Tranona recommended that I get a holding tank fitted, so I’ve asked for a price to get that done too. Guess I should also consider Jabsco versus Lavac.

As before, I’d appreciate any further comments.

Thanks!

 

[All The Gear No Idea]

Thanks once again to each and every contributor.

I understand the comments about starting with a smaller boat, but there are a few reasons why we’re looking at a 31ft boat. Although a lot of the time there will be just two of us, ocassionally there will be four, or even less frequently six. It’s with this in mind that we’re looking at a slightly bigger boat.

@ All the gear, No idea: thanks for the link to the cockpit tent manufacturer. I’ll check that out …and start getting some figures together.

@ bendyone & djbreeze: There’s already a Porta Potti on the boat, but that’s in the forepeak amidst a v-berth. Bit too unsavoury for the missus.

Got a quote through to get the heads installation carried-out on the Forth. Here’s what was detailed:

1) Jabsco toilet compact bowl £149.8, or regular bowl £179.75
2) Seacocks and skin fittings £80
3) Other sikaflex, pipes, hose clips £50
4) Labour to fit toilets including seacocks and all fixture & fittings about 12hours (£25 per hour inc. vat)

So that comes in at around £300 for the bits, and £300 for the labour. Well short of £2000 so far.

On page 3 of this thread, Tranona recommended that I get a holding tank fitted, so I’ve asked for a price to get that done too. Guess I should also consider Jabsco versus Lavac.

As before, I’d appreciate any further comments.

Thanks!

£600 is well short of £2000, but what about the joinery, headlinings, lighting, sink, taps, sundry hardware items, finishing? I assumed there to be no base to fit your new toilet, or any drainage for the sink (and unforeseen spillages).

The fitting of a toilet on it's own is much less of a job. Sorry, i misunderstood what you were after.

Good luck with your venture!