Rocna or Vulcan

[GHA]

Totally agree - which is why when adverse weather events are forecast you seek the best shelter, seek good holding and deploy the correct ground tackle, etc,

Anchors are a compromise. No anchor is perfect.

Jonathan

Very trusting of forecast

It's not always forecast, big winds can sneak up on you unannounced, like the video link. Which is why probably the majority of cruisers like a biggish hook. You don't always have time to do your more than one small anchor technique, and boats can get lost. Indeed no anchor is perfect, the concept doesn't exist in the real world. Good design of a size up does push the odds more in your favour though. Assuming your boat doesn't mind few extra kilos up front.

 

[GHA]

Very droll,

Maybe they should have listened to the weather forecast.

It wasn't!!

 

[Neeves]

Very trusting of forecast

It's not always forecast, big winds can sneak up on you unannounced, like the video link. Which is why probably the majority of cruisers like a biggish hook. You don't always have time to do your more than one small anchor technique, and boats can get lost. Indeed no anchor is perfect, the concept doesn't exist in the real world. Good design of a size up does push the odds more in your favour though. Assuming your boat doesn't mind few extra kilos up front.

Few yachts are so sensitive they cannot accept a few extra kgs on the bow roller. We prefer to carry anchors suited to different seabeds than rely on one oversized design, that may not perform in some seabeds.

Going up a size from 20kg to 25kg will have minimal effect on increase hold (In fact I doubt you would notice), changing anchor may double or treble hold.

The key are your words in you penultimate sentence 'Goor Design'.

Barometers are a surprisingly cheap tool to devine changes in weather systems - I'm surprised more people do not use them.

Jonathan

 

[GHA]

Few yachts are so sensitive they cannot accept a few extra kgs on the bow roller. We prefer to carry anchors suited to different seabeds than rely on one oversized design, that may not perform in some seabeds.

Going up a size from 20kg to 25kg will have minimal effect on increase hold (In fact I doubt you would notice), changing anchor may double or treble hold.

The key are your words in you penultimate sentence 'Goor Design'.

Barometers are a surprisingly cheap tool to devine changes in weather systems - I'm surprised more people do not use them.

Jonathan

No one actually mentioned only having one anchor. Are you really sure a 25Kg will have no more hold than a 20Kg?? Sounds like cloud cuckoo land somehow....

And are you really going to change the hook at 3am when the monster thunderstorm comes in??

Ever wondered why if you talk to cruisers all around the world, of all the long distance cruisers like Evans Starzinger & Skip Novak you are the *only* person shouting don't go a bit bigger? (not don't have any choice).

Must seem a bit lonely


Barometers can't foresee sudden thunderstorms either like the unforecast (I think! ) one in the video.

Great though they are, think I might even have one somewhere....

 

[Neeves]

Evan uses Bruce and Skip CQR of about 100lb each for approx 50' yachts. Of course they suggest going oversize, but its actually not that much. How many owners of Rocna, Spade, Supreme here would relish returning to use of a CQR (oversize or not).

Of course a 25kg anchor offers more hold than a 20kg anchor - I said you would not notice the difference, you might get as low as a 12% increase in hold. You don't need to change the anchor at 3am if you chose the one suited to the seabed first off, that choice will not change with the weather (or if it does change - you have already dragged a long way!)

If you think the hold might be more than 12% - I'd like to see evidence, other than gut feel. I agree it might be higher, but I'd not bank on it.

We tend not to get thunderstorms at 3am - they generally pass through late in the afternoon early evening. But they are fairly typical in the summer and you plan accordingly - you do not assume you are going to be lucky Our fronts are well forecast 4-7 days in advance, timing firming up as they get closer - the forecast might be out by a few hours (once we get to within 24 hours) - but you plan accordingly. (and if that means moving at 3am - that's what you do). Sitting on a lee shore because you have an oversize anchor is plain daft.

You seem to imply 'your' thunderstorms are unique weather events - so unique no-one plans for them. Seems cloud cuckoo land to me

Jonathan

edit

Our fronts in the summer might come through as 35 knots from the SW and you might previously have been sitting in a NE 35 knot seabreeze. The change might take 1 hour. You need to wait for the seabreeze to abate and then move to the alternate anchorage and hope to get there before the SWly comes through - having an oversized anchor is not much use.

or the extreme

http://media.bom.gov.au/social/blog/18/the-big-bust--southerly-busters-explained/

close edit

 

[eddystone]

I hope your kedge is big enough to be a primary!

Jonathan

FX16 for 32ft/4.4T?

 

[vyv_cox]

FX16 for 32ft/4.4T?

Same size as ours for 35 ft. Most impressive holding in sandy Greek seabeds. Last year I used a fork moor in winds to about 40 knots but laid the Fortress from the yacht, rather than blow up the dinghy, which makes judging the distance somewhat difficult. It turned out that I only had 3:1 on it, with a short length of chain plus Anchorplait, and I feared that I would have to re-lay it. However it held perfectly for two days and was deeply buried when I retrieved it.

 

[Neeves]

Same size as ours for 35 ft. Most impressive holding in sandy Greek seabeds. Last year I used a fork moor in winds to about 40 knots but laid the Fortress from the yacht, rather than blow up the dinghy, which makes judging the distance somewhat difficult. It turned out that I only had 3:1 on it, with a short length of chain plus Anchorplait, and I feared that I would have to re-lay it. However it held perfectly for two days and was deeply buried when I retrieved it.

Ours is an FX 23 (which for daily use I think is a bit big) our cat has the windage of a 45' mono but our experience is the same as Vyv's - give it sand (or mud) and it is totally reliable. As with Vyv we often use it set in a 'V'.

My reasoning behind the FX23 being too big:

I find we cannot set it in sand by engine power and have it disappear, now matter how hard we try. So it is always 'set' with crown and stock visible. I'm conscious that some people claim it trips on a change of tide or wind and this might be because it is simply not set deeply enough, combined with the practice of constantly oversizing anchors (making a disappearing set even less likely). A Fortress with increased tension, wind, will disappear in sand and mud and seems to dive 'for ever' making retrieval sometimes an issue after a big blow. Size makes no difference as long as the tension is sufficient (small ones disappear, large ones disappear - just more tension/wind needed). So my thought is a slightly smaller anchor will provide a deeper set and be less likely, or totally unlikely, to trip.

We are toying with the idea of replacing the FX 23 with a FX16 AND a FX 37.

I'm surprised more people do not use them.

Part of the issue is perception - go into an America chandler and there are rows of Fortress on display, here they sit in boxes on dusty shelves. Here I simply do not see them when I make a marina circuit - in America they decorate bow rollers on rollers designed to hold a Fortress (and they are cheaper in America - and appeal to those who buy local, Made In America). It has nothing to do with performance - go round a French marina and Brittany are commonplace - and as far as I know their seabeds, collectively, are no different to ours in Australia or yours in the UK.

Jonathan

 

[Neeves]

FX16 for 32ft/4.4T?

I thought I posted this??

That's not a kedge, that's a(nother) primary!

Easy to stow, easy to set, easy to carry down the deck or deploy by a dinghy.

Jonathan

 

[eddystone]

I thought I posted this??

That's not a kedge, that's a(nother) primary!

Easy to stow, easy to set, easy to carry down the deck or deploy by a dinghy.

Jonathan

Well I didn't think the FX11 would be a night and day difference in easiness to stow so might as well go bigger and be useable as a main - trouble is it won't stow in the anchor locker - now I think about it my anchor decisions have been based on performance above the waterline rather than below.

 

[Neeves]

It is a critical issue when choosing an anchor - does it fit. You are not alone, many would not buy a Rocna because it does not fit (without severe alterations). Peter Smith recognised this and developed the Vulcan) - hence the thread. There are a number of devices that allow you to secure the Fortress, usually at the transom, assembled and ready to use (I think they are somewhere on the Fortress website or they have links). They are very simple and you could knocking something up yourself. I do see Fortress simply lashed to an aft stanchion. People also stow them flat on deck, at the bow, but they do clutter up an important working area.

You have the FX 16 and are unlikely to change but to me for everyday (and night) application a FX 11 would probably be sufficient and would then fit. If its handy you might then use it more. If you are expecting it to be a storm or gloopy mud anchor then having the FX16, as well, would be prudent (the small and larger FX is the way our thinking is developing).

The biggest issue with using the smaller anchor is that it would set more deeply - so you need more patience to retrieve.

Jonathan

 

[eddystone]

It is a critical issue when choosing an anchor - does it fit. You are not alone, many would not buy a Rocna because it does not fit (without severe alterations). Peter Smith recognised this and developed the Vulcan) - hence the thread. There are a number of devices that allow you to secure the Fortress, usually at the transom, assembled and ready to use (I think they are somewhere on the Fortress website or they have links). They are very simple and you could knocking something up yourself. I do see Fortress simply lashed to an aft stanchion. People also stow them flat on deck, at the bow, but they do clutter up an important working area.

You have the FX 16 and are unlikely to change but to me for everyday (and night) application a FX 11 would probably be sufficient and would then fit. If its handy you might then use it more. If you are expecting it to be a storm or gloopy mud anchor then having the FX16, as well, would be prudent (the small and larger FX is the way our thinking is developing).

The biggest issue with using the smaller anchor is that it would set more deeply - so you need more patience to retrieve.

Jonathan

It's not a problem - it fits standing up in the cockpit locker with the end in a plastic laundry basket holding the chain/rope.

 

[Neeves]

It's not a problem - it fits standing up in the cockpit locker with the end in a plastic laundry basket holding the chain/rope.

We use a milk crate for our spare rode, being cubic it fits neatly and we can stack 3 high, 2 stacks (big locker) with the Fortress assembled packed standing, shank vertical, against the locker wall. We don't have rode and anchor joined - its much easier to get each out separately and assemble (attach the shackle already on the shank.) The locker is common on catamarans, middle of the bridge deck, just forward of the mast and also houses chain locker and windlass (so the weight is roughly in the right place).

Jonathan