Rocna 15 kg on a Westerly Tempest - With Pictures

[AncoraLatina]

Just a quick note to AncoraLatina - from the pics on your site it looks as if you copied the Spade / Oceane blade geometry, but modified the shank to look a bit different. Provided you havn't deviated significantly from the Spade concept you may have an almost equivalent anchor, so why not acknowledge your sources or specify how your developments improve on the original Oceane.

Just in case, if you don’t know it, both Spade and Oceane anchors are patented...

The game of « your anchor looks like… » is not new and the Raya has already be compared with several different brands:

Our anchor has been initially designed to replace the « Bruce clones » of poor quality which equip more than 80% of the Brazilian boats.

- The shape of the fluke is semi-conical and not concave as the Spade
- There is no lead ballast in the tip like the Spade
- The shape of the shank as well as its position on the blade are completely different
- The shank is not hollow as the Spade
- The blade surface are of the RAYA is more than 40% bigger than the one of the Spade

The main similarity between the Spade and the Raya is that they both look like… an anchor, ;-0

You could also make the same comparison about the Rocna and the Oceane (with a Roll bar) or between the Rocna, the Supreme, the Bügel and the Sarca??.

Last point? Is your opinion based on a careful study of both models? Did you have the chance to compare both anchors side by side? One of our customers did: (http://sailfar.net/forum/index.php?topic=2207.0)

« For those who think it looks like the old "Spade" anchor, I just recently saw a Spade - and this is a much better piece of engineering. »

João

 

[CaptainBob]

João,

You didn't answer as to whether you would like to lend me an anchor I can test back to back with my Rocna.

 

[Refueler]

I have always regarded recc'd anchor sizes as a guide to MINIMUM to be carried. In that I would always add size / weight till point that it becomes awkward to handle over bow of the boat.

To OP - you admit many times that you have a Rocna of greater size and weight than the previous CQR. So why is this not a large part of the reason that it holds better ?
Yes I am a CQR user, but also accept that there are better anchors for certain types of bottom.
I can take you to an area that I can throw over a Fishermans anchor of about 15lb and it will hold while your Rocna will not. I can take you to another area that nothing will hold, even though bottom is sandy.

This is where anchor comparison falls apart and is misleading. Conditions of bottom, type of rode, weather, tides / currents, depth, ... so many factors come into it that too many make sweeping statements that anchor xxxx is better than anchor zzzzz ...

They all work in their designed capacities. And if you substantially increase size and weight - the common concrete block or stone will work !

Sorry to cast doubt over a good post ... but please .......... who started the usual 'dealers tit-tat !' ...

 

[craigsmith]

Just a quick note to AncoraLatina - from the pics on your site it looks as if you copied the Spade / Oceane blade geometry, but modified the shank to look a bit different. Provided you havn't deviated significantly from the Spade concept you may have an almost equivalent anchor, so why not acknowledge your sources or specify how your developments improve on the original Oceane.

Sorry to interject again, but since Alain's policy recently has been, as above, to attempt to sabotage any and every thread mentioning "Rocna" in recent months, I don't believe it's out of line. Srm: 'Ancora Latina' and their "Raya" version of the Oceane/Sword is in fact Alain Poiraud's new effort; after finishing with Spade, Alain is now living in Brazil and has started producing this anchor there. Unfortunately for reasons of his own, Alain apparently feels the need to deny his involvement.

Oh dear, yet another manufacturer claiming that their product is better and therefore we can use a lighter anchor. That has been the marketing ploy for almost every anchor since the CQR in the 1940's. However, when you listen to people who use the anchors in real cruising situations (as opposed to marina based boats that only anchor in settled conditions) you find that the size carried creeps up based on experience.

To be fair, if one design is demonstrably more efficient than another, it may reasonably be sized lighter for the same conditions. The Rocna 15 above can replace a plough or claw of double its weight. However, nothing is so simple. The Rocna design seeks to be as efficient as possible, but two factors mandate a certain weight: 1) dead weight is necessary to perform well with short rode scopes, and 2) steel is only so strong and a certain amount is necessary to build something that is adequately durable. On the latter issue, a number of newer anchors compromise this issue to a degree we would consider unacceptable. Large thin sections of plate steel are vulnerable, and lacking structural reinforcement they are easily damaged.

The Rocna 15 of the opening poster: well it could weigh a lot less than 15 kg; as an argument by extremes, we could build it out of paper thin plate! - but of course it would be weak and useless. We wouldn't want to weaken the anchor by trying to make its "lightness" a selling point.

 

[srm]

This was a good thread until I made the mistake of rising to a salesman's bait instead of my usual tactic of telling them (not very politely) where to go. Sorry guys. Positive thing is his agressive tactics are not very impressive and as he only recommends a 12.5 kg hybrid copy of a Bruce crossed with an Oceane anchor for my boat obviously has little real life cruising experience. (I carry a 20kg genuine Bruce and 15 kg Oceane as backups)

The thing I like most about cruising is we all have different ideas, based on our individual experiences and pejudices - which makes it all so interesting.

I often learn from others, which is why I am in this forum - but trust my boat and my life in 60 kn plus winds to a lightweight anchor with much the same fluke area as my smaller anchor (ignoring the 10 kg Bruce I use as a lunch hook) - you must be joking João. I have been there and know what the loads are when its so windy that the only way to get forward is by crawling and you can not breathe when looking to windward. In these conditions my policy is to expect the unexpected, which is why I carry two full weight sets of ground tackle plus spares, and will deploy both anchors and cables when the wind gets up to force 9.

 

[AncoraLatina]

João, You didn't answer as to whether you would like to lend me an anchor I can test back to back with my Rocna.

Hummm ?? Did you also have your Rocna anchor lend??

And how could you test a 15 kg anchor with a 9.5 m boat and an engine of 18 hp?? Are you serious??

João

 

[Phoenix of Hamble]

However, when you listen to people who use the anchors in real cruising situations (as opposed to marina based boats that only anchor in settled conditions) you find that the size carried creeps up based on experience.

This is the bit of advice that I am most prepared to listen to.

I have a Delta of more than adequate size to hold my boat, but have recently acquired a second anchor for hairy conditions of more than double the weight.... massively oversized for the boat really.... but I bet I sleep well when its on the bottom......

 

[CaptainBob]

Hummm ?? Did you also have your Rocna anchor lend??

Yes, I did.

And how could you test a 15 kg anchor with a 9.5 m boat and an engine of 18 hp?? Are you serious??

My engine is 22HP I'll have you know!!

And there's a heck of a lot more than just brute holding power to test methinks.

What do you have to lose? If yours is as good as you seem to be saying it is, get it out there and let some people try it.

 

[CaptainBob]

To OP - you admit many times that you have a Rocna of greater size and weight than the previous CQR. So why is this not a large part of the reason that it holds better?

Absolutely, of-course.

But there's much more to it than that. How quick it sets, I'd say, is at least as important a factor as overall holding power. At least, if you anchor somewhere with and likely change to your position. And setting speed is I'd guess more down to the design than the weight.

My genuine CQR failed to set quite often - or took a good distance before it did. This is a royal pain in the preverbial, escpecially when space is tight - and downright sleep depriving when the tide is set to turn in the wee small hours.

 

[srm]

And how could you test a 15 kg anchor with a 9.5 m boat and an engine of 18 hp?? Are you serious??

João

Well then why not let me have the use of a 12.5 kg anchor that your table claims is adequate for my 9 tonne displacement, 35 ft hull length and 38 ft over the bowsprit cutter, and I will use it for the full 2010 cruising season (2009 season has been fairly typical, about 1800 miles coastal sailing). I will also use whatever anchor rode you specify as appropriate. I may also lay a second anchor underfoot as an insurance and we will record how many times yours holds without recourse to the backup. I could also take it for you to places that I know have suspect holding and see if it does any better than the anchors I have used there in the past. Unfortunatly, I can not guarantee 60 knot winds but with luck we should get one or two early or late season blows to provide an honest test.

Such a test will be far more realistic than any of the magazine sponsored trials with their inevitable time and area limits. As a trained hydrographic surveyor I am quite used to keeping accurate and professional records.

 

[Chris_Robb]

CaptBob, you may find a peruse of the Rocna KB article on sizing to be informative:
www.rocna.com/kb/Rocna_sizing_recommendations

As to fit, the Rocna pattern is not particularly distinctive from the perspective of the bow-roller. It provides greater clearance than the Delta (compare the profile via the graphic on this page), for example, and other types tend to be similar in their geometry if they're designed to fit on the widest possible variety of boats. Over-sizing the anchor combined with a roller designed for an under-sized plough or claw is always likely to create complications. Those looking at new anchors but concerned about fit can either rely on money-back-guarantees from the retailers, or save a bit of hassle by e-mailing Rocna and asking for the full-scale side profile patterns which are available for each anchor size.

Your fitting solution looks workable. If at any point you decide to replace the bow-roller, keep this link in mind:
www.rocna.com/kb/Bow_roller_assembly_design

I'll not bother to feed Alain "João" Poiraud's troll, unless anyone else has specific queries.

Yes - I have one. There was a rumour that your anchors now had a cast fluke, welded to the stock. Looking at the pictures of Capt Bobs, this is obviously welded. Can you confirm that this is not the case.

 

[alan_d]

LOL, well, glad I could help Was it because you couldn't do the same thing on your Konsort's pushpit - or because you're not keen on the arrangement?

Not keen on the arrangement. I have an electric windlass, and the thought of having to manhandle the last few metres chain does not appeal.

Does anyone know if a 10kg Delta will fit snugly on that roller?

 

[AncoraLatina]

the « Chinese made » cast fluke welded on Bisaloy shank!

There was a rumour that your anchors now had a cast fluke, welded to the stock. Looking at the pictures of Capt Bobs, this is obviously welded. Can you confirm that this is not the case.

Hi Chris,

This is not a very friendly question to ask to C.Rocna, and it would take some time before you will get the precise answer from him (I know the answer ;-))

He would prefer more to talk about his favorite witch: « Alain "João" Poiraud »…

Let’s wait a little bit more to see if he will give you an HONEST answer, otherwise I can tell you everything about the « Chinese made » cast fluke, about problems welding cast iron to Bisaloy, about tests results of the Made in China model sold in Europe with a cast iron fluke.. …

João NODARI

 

[Chris_Robb]

Hi Chris,

This is not a very friendly question to ask to C.Rocna, and it would take some time before you will get the precise answer from him (I know the answer ;-))

He would prefer more to talk about his favorite witch: « Alain "João" Poiraud »…

Let’s wait a little bit more to see if he will give you an HONEST answer, otherwise I can tell you everything about the « Chinese made » cast fluke, about problems welding cast iron to Bisaloy, about tests results of the Made in China model sold in Europe with a cast iron fluke.. …

João NODARI

João - Interesting - Craig opened his mouth again about Manson here about 2 months ago - his other pet hate. Mansons let me in on some interesting info....

 

[michael taylor]

I had the 'opposite' advice to yours, i.e. Rocna recommended a lighter anchor than the CQR which I had been using. This was very difficult to accept. However, the next size Rocna had a shank that was too large for my Sadler 32 and the surface area of the anchor is similar but a more efficient shape.

I dragged about once per year with the CQR. In 2 years I have yet to drag the rocna. I anchor some 270 nights per year.

 

[CaptainBob]

That's some recommendation! I'll sleep even better at night now!

 

[AncoraLatina]

João - Interesting - Craig opened his mouth again about Manson here about 2 months ago - his other pet hate....

Well... if neither the words “Manson Supreme” nor “Alain” have any action on Craig-Rocna – there is no more chance that he will come and give us the answer... :-(

Here is “THE” answer:

ALL Rocna anchors shipped to Europe are now manufactured in China – WITH A CAST IRON FLUKE –

Welding Cast iron (fluke) and Bisaloy (shank) may be a source of problems – You will find a fully independent advice on:

http://dme.digdnn.com/zone_files/inspectorate_pdf/safety_alert071.pdf

« - ASTM A514 (equivalent to Bisaloy 80) high-strength, low-alloy, quenched-and-tempered steels……. Although they have been available for many years, they continue to pose some distinct challenges for welders. »
« - This grade of steel may be susceptible to cracking in the heat-affected zone of welds »

Have also a look at:

http://www.esabna.com/EUWeb/OXY_handbook/589oxy15_1.htm

WELDING OF CAST IRON - Cast iron is an extremely versatile material, used in thousands of industrial products. It is hard, wear-resistant, and relatively inexpensive. Cast iron, like steel, is an iron-carbon alloy. In composition and structure, and in some of its properties, it is quite different from steel. While many grades of cast iron can be welded successfully, not all cast iron is weldable,

"and welding of any cast iron presents problems not usually encountered in the welding of steel."

Up to now, the Chinese model has only been tested by the German magazine YACHT (August 2009):

- The Mason Supreme has been the test winner – with four stars.
- The Rocna got only two stars:

Sand: hält 250 daN – Mergel/kies: Fasst nicht – Schlick: Fasst schlecht
(Sand: hold 250 daN - marl/gravel: didn’t set - mud: Set badly)


Now, can we still expect C.Rocna to come and explain to us that although the Rocna got only two stars, it was the clear winner of the test !… :-()

João NODARI

 

[GrantKing]

Well... if neither the words “Manson Supreme” nor “Alain” have any action on Craig-Rocna – there is no more chance that he will come and give us the answer... :-(

Here is “THE” answer:

ALL Rocna anchors shipped to Europe are now manufactured in China – WITH A CAST IRON FLUKE –

Welding Cast iron (fluke) and Bisaloy (shank) may be a source of problems – You will find a fully independent advice on:

http://dme.digdnn.com/zone_files/inspectorate_pdf/safety_alert071.pdf

« - ASTM A514 (equivalent to Bisaloy 80) high-strength, low-alloy, quenched-and-tempered steels……. Although they have been available for many years, they continue to pose some distinct challenges for welders. »
« - This grade of steel may be susceptible to cracking in the heat-affected zone of welds »

Have also a look at:

http://www.esabna.com/EUWeb/OXY_handbook/589oxy15_1.htm

WELDING OF CAST IRON - Cast iron is an extremely versatile material, used in thousands of industrial products. It is hard, wear-resistant, and relatively inexpensive. Cast iron, like steel, is an iron-carbon alloy. In composition and structure, and in some of its properties, it is quite different from steel. While many grades of cast iron can be welded successfully, not all cast iron is weldable,

"and welding of any cast iron presents problems not usually encountered in the welding of steel."

Up to now, the Chinese model has only been tested by the German magazine YACHT (August 2009):

- The Mason Supreme has been the test winner – with four stars.
- The Rocna got only two stars:

Sand: hält 250 daN – Mergel/kies: Fasst nicht – Schlick: Fasst schlecht
(Sand: hold 250 daN - marl/gravel: didn’t set - mud: Set badly)


Now, can we still expect C.Rocna to come and explain to us that although the Rocna got only two stars, it was the clear winner of the test !… :-()

João NODARI

I have no problem in stating FACT rather than fiction:

THE ROCNA ANCHORS MADE IN OUR FACILITY IN CHINA HAVE A CAST FLUKE WELDED TO THE SHANK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

No more guessing "Ancora", "Alain" or whoever you want to be on the day.

Feel free to continue to make as many suppositions as you like but until you have FACT and EVIDENCE as to your claims of some sort of downgrading of the quality or strength of the Rocna save your wasted energies.

Our facility and product has undergone extensive testing and examination by RINA to Lloyds standards that prove we know what we are doing and the quality of the product we manufacture.

Perhaps you should look in your own closet and put your own product through the same testing instead of fishing for comments from Craig who, by the way, does not speak officially for Rocna. Official comments will only come from me.

The knowledge that Craig possesses of anchors and anchoring techniques is invaluable to the many forums he posts on and his willingness to pass on helpful information should be encouraged. We are all on the constant search for more information.

Your bitterness towards him once again hijacks another informative thread.

Grant King
Production Manager
Rocna Anchors
New Zealand