RNLI again?

[ShinyShoe]

Yes, but they are all crimes, a different kettle of fish from a bevvy with a bit of horseplay.
Even if it was in bad taste, or got a bit out of hand, it's still not criminal actions or intentions of.

Steve - I don't know if you know what the "horseplay" was. From what was reported this was the sort of thing that could easily get a criminal prosecution if someone was so minded.

Certainly it would be assault.

But if the reports are to be believed I'd be surprised if the prosecutor fiscal wouldn't have been prepared to at least try for higher charges with the Offences Against A Person Act. It appears 3 people were involved in all of that (not the cox).

They should probably be considering themselves lucky to not be in court.

 

[RichardS]

What a bizarre concept. If I had attempted to impose my workplace authority, away from the workplace on a Christmas night out, I would, quite rightly, have been told where to get off. I would also never have been invited to another social function.

Employment law is quite clear on this point and there have been plenty of cases.

If you are a manager of a company and in a postion of authority in the workplace and something like bullying or harrassment or discrimination or a breach of the Company's duty of care to its employees takes place in a social setting and you see this behaviour and do nothing about it, then, if this comes before and Employment Tribunal or a civil court, the company (as it is represented by you) will almost certainly be deemed to have been complicit in the committing of the act.

You might well find that you find yourself being disciplined pr dismissed by the company for your lack of action.

Many companies have curtailed social events where alcohol is available or have restricted the amount of alcohol available for this very reason. :ambivalence:

Richard

 

[steve yates]

Steve - I don't know if you know what the "horseplay" was. From what was reported this was the sort of thing that could easily get a criminal prosecution if someone was so minded.

Certainly it would be assault.

But if the reports are to be believed I'd be surprised if the prosecutor fiscal wouldn't have been prepared to at least try for higher charges with the Offences Against A Person Act. It appears 3 people were involved in all of that (not the cox).

They should probably be considering themselves lucky to not be in court.

Aye, I do, and technically, mooning could be prosecuted as exposing oneself in publicly.

If the guy that got the arse in his face complained to the police, then that would be assault.
He didn't, none of us know what he thought. Even if he didn't like it, he probably wasn't traumatised.

With the info available, I still see it as a culpable overreaction by management. It's a personal view, and won't change unless we find out there was a lot more, unsavoury, details to the whole thing.

And I would guess that is unlikely, and it is indeed a mountain made out of a molehill.

 

[ShinyShoe]

technically, mooning could be prosecuted as exposing oneself in publicly.

Not sure you are going to get that to stick in court though.

If the guy that got the arse in his face complained to the police, then that would be assault.
He didn't, none of us know what he thought.

But there have been countless recent high profile cases where people haven't complained, or not officially, for whatever reason. If someone complained in 20 years time, and then 10 others complained saying they had the same happen to them as an initiation ceremony. When they dig into it the RNLI knew about it in 2017 and did nothing...? That's what has happened with the recent high profile cases...

Even if he didn't like it, he probably wasn't traumatised.

I may be a wimp. But actually having another guy's arse shoved in my face while being pinned down by two other people sounds relatively traumatic to me. Maybe not in the same league as some of the things these guys do. But I very much doubt he "liked it".

Actually, its the kind of thing that if I thought it might happen to me would put me off volunteering FAR FAR more than the possibility of having to deal with death and trauma.

a mountain made out of a molehill.

Don't get me wrong. I'm quite sure the vast majority of people present may well have thought that. But once the RNLI were told - I don't think there was any choice but to act. Perhaps a quiet word would have been in order. But if you don't get the feel that you'd be told at HQ about a repeat occurrence how would you ensure the quiet word was enough to ensure there was no repeat in the future.

We of course also don't have all the details and almost certainly never will. Who was involved? Did others try to intervene? Did others ask the cox to intervene and he refused saying "no on duty mate"? Who complained (someone had to have said something to someone or HQ wouldn't know?) When questioned was the response "this is just how it is" or "well its hardly the first time" etc...

 

[Blue Sunray]

Content deleted

Bear in mind that not all will share your sexual preferences.

 

[davidej]

If you have been to boarding school in the 50's you won't worry about things like this.

 

[Daydream believer]

If you have been to boarding school in the 50's you won't worry about things like this.

So that makes it Ok to go around doing it does it?

 

[davidej]

So that makes it Ok to go around doing it does it?

I'm not saying it is, but it is hardly traumatic.

A pity that he didn't say "literally traumatic" then we could really have an argument!

 

[chrishscorp]

Some interesting comments on here

Perhaps those that think these sort of high jinks are acceptable, try the same stunt in the bar of their sailing club whilst there are visitors from another club in attendance and see what their General Committee and Membership Secretary have to say on the matter afterwards. If the RNLI building was being used for the party then they are involved

 

[jonjo8]

Bear in mind that not all will share your sexual preferences.

 

[steve yates]

So that makes it Ok to go around doing it does it?

Just to be clear, my own personal point is not that this is ok, but that
a)it is not the criminality/predatory paedophilia it is compared to elsewhere, it is drunken highjinks, or rowdiness, depending on your POV
And more importantly, b) the management response, and the consequence of that, is way out of proportion to the perceived "offence"

 

[ShinyShoe]

Assuming a court wasn't prepared to accept the act was sexual in nature* - it would meet the definition of Breach of the Peace in Scottish Law. That is a different offence to England, more akin with a Public Order Offence. In England if you get arrested for Breach of the Peace, you actually get arrested to prevent a further breach of the peace. Unless you are charged with a separate offence you would then be released without charge. In Scotland Breach of the Peace has a different meaning and you would expect to appear in the Sheriff Court - and custodial sentences are not unheard of.

*A fiscal with half a brain may allow that to appear on the charge sheet with a view to getting a "deal" on Breach of the Peace. It would also then appear on any Enhanced Disclosure and Barring Search. Expect that to prove awkward to explain at the job interview.

I never compared it to paedophilia. If the RNLI thought something at that level had occurred they didn't do enough.

I wasn't present. I don't have a witness statement. There would be circumstances like this that I do think could make a case for the act having a sexual nature (as others have also suggested). There would be other circumstances where you'd only be looking at charges of common assault and Breach of The Peace. (BotP only needs to show it caused alarm and disturbance to the community. The community means the people in the area at the time). Licking someone in Scotland can be sufficient to classify as sexual assault. No doubt the defence lawyers will be saying "Your honour - this was drunken hijinks..."

I don't think a Sheriff would be likely to dismiss this as high jinks.

 

[reginaldon]

I am not a great fan of all of the rnli's policies or decisions, but I'm with them in this.

 

[NormanS]

I am not a great fan of all of the rnli's policies or decisions, but I'm with them in this.

Really? Meanwhile the Lifeboat stays out of use!

 

[Daydream believer]

Really? Meanwhile the Lifeboat stays out of use!

Yes! but one can hardly claim that to be the fault of the management, can one?
Does one expect them to condone such alleged behavior?
What action would one expect. Turn a blind eye? allow discipline to run riot & rumour to run rife, effectively bringing the institutions name into disrepute?
What would be considered the correct action if it were not to take a strict line? Where does it end if allowed to continue in any form -even with a slap on the wrist?
The RNLI has to look squeaky clean does it not?

 

[Blue Sunray]

Yes! but one can hardly claim that to be the fault of the management, can one?
Does one expect them to condone such alleged behavior?
What action would one expect. Turn a blind eye? allow discipline to run riot & rumour to run rife, effectively bringing the institutions name into disrepute?
What would be considered the correct action if it were not to take a strict line? Where does it end if allowed to continue in any form -even with a slap on the wrist?
The RNLI has to look squeaky clean does it not?

I suspect many of the posters on here were also crying 'PC gone mad' when the BBC decided to dispense with St Jeremy's services for giving a 'minion' a slap. The belief that rules shouldn't apply to 'good chaps' seems to be a running theme amongst some.

 

[NormanS]

Yes! but one can hardly claim that to be the fault of the management, can one?
Does one expect them to condone such alleged behavior?
What action would one expect. Turn a blind eye? allow discipline to run riot & rumour to run rife, effectively bringing the institutions name into disrepute?
What would be considered the correct action if it were not to take a strict line? Where does it end if allowed to continue in any form -even with a slap on the wrist?
The RNLI has to look squeaky clean does it not?

I merely expect them to keep the show on the road. Imagine if a train driver did something wrong, do you think the trains wouldn't run?

 

[Blue Sunray]

I merely expect them to keep the show on the road. Imagine if a train driver did something wrong, do you think the trains wouldn't run?

I take it you don't live or work in the Southern Railways or Croydon tramlink areas?

 

[dunedin]

Really? Meanwhile the Lifeboat stays out of use!

That’s what I still don’t get- where is the deputy coxswain? The boat cannot be dependent upon a single person being within 5 minutes travel time 365x24

 

[ShinyShoe]

That’s what I still don’t get- where is the deputy coxswain? The boat cannot be dependent upon a single person being within 5 minutes travel time 365x24

At a guess...

There may be two deputies. The two deputies may well also be the ILB helms. I've seen that at other stations.

So take the cox out and have a "both" boats call (much more common at Arbroath to launch both or just the ILB) and you need both deputies. They may well understand their manning arrangements to know thats unlikely. If the deputies as say firemen, paramedics, fishermen they will not always be present to respond.

Also common that the cox may be mechanic. They may not be able to replace that so quickly...

A team of perhaps 18, reduced to 15. Need 5 or 6 for the ALB and 3 for the ILB. You know 5 are typically unable to respond in time... You can't be sure if you get a shout you get the numbers - so you stand down the ALB and ask other teams to cover it.