river orwell to isle of wight

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thegasmannick

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thinking of a trip from the orwell to the isle of wight in june wondered if people have any suggested routes as we are going as 3 boat flotila and 1 being a 23ft yacht and they wanting to do short day runs im just looking for suggested trip`s and marina `s that possible reachable in day trip`s
all dependable on weather i know and good marina`s with easy access and no rough entrance`s as 1 yacht is on a outboard and i dont want him having having stressful trip
thanks for any advice
 
thegasmannick said:
thinking of a trip from the orwell to the isle of wight in june wondered if people have any suggested routes as we are going as 3 boat flotila and 1 being a 23ft yacht and they wanting to do short day runs im just looking for suggested trip`s and marina `s that possible reachable in day trip`s
all dependable on weather i know and good marina`s with easy access and no rough entrance`s as 1 yacht is on a outboard and i dont want him having having stressful trip
thanks for any advice
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Dover to Sovereign is around 60 miles if my memory serves, and is difficult to shorten, Dover Western entrance always seems to be bumpy, and Ramsgate can be bumpy too (once rolled a boat hook out of coach roof clips going in there), all depends on wind direction. Blackwater to Ramsgate is about 38 miles.
Don't forget you're going with only roughly 5 hours of westbound tide too, and if the wind's SW'ly it can also be very bumpy.

Gladys is roughly 35ft, and I wouldn't hesitate, having got as far as Eastbourne, but I'm not sure it's practical for a 23' who wants short day sails, and non bumpy entrances
 
Gladys said:
Dover to Sovereign is around 60 miles if my memory serves, and is difficult to shorten, Dover Western entrance always seems to be bumpy, and Ramsgate can be bumpy too (once rolled a boat hook out of coach roof clips going in there), all depends on wind direction. Blackwater to Ramsgate is about 38 miles.
Don't forget you're going with only roughly 5 hours of westbound tide too, and if the wind's SW'ly it can also be very bumpy.

Gladys is roughly 35ft, and I wouldn't hesitate, having got as far as Eastbourne, but I'm not sure it's practical for a 23' who wants short day sails, and non bumpy entrances
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Make sure you are @ Dungeness @ the turn of the tide to take the ebb down the Channel. Beating into a strong south westerly down the Channel is best avoided, especially in a 23 foot cruising yacht.
 
There is a similar thread going on in Scuttlebutt at the moment, so I won't repeat all that I said. I believe that it is 60 miles Brighton-Dover, which is easy in one tide going east but impossible the other way. It will be fun as flotilla, but only so long as you don't insist on staying together. It is perfectly manageable with three small boats, in fact I know someone who did it in a Wivenhoe OD many years ago. As I said in the other place, be prepared for early starts and late arrivals because of the tidal constraints which may necessitate sailing in the dark even if you are doing day-sails. As for navigation, keep England to your right and you ought to get there.
 
I took a Sonata from Southampton to the Blackwater some years ago, and stopped at Brighton, anchored of Dungeness, then Ramsgate, the Swale, and Blackwater. Lucky with the weather at the time, in a small window over Easter. Nominally the Sonata is also 23ft, with an outboard. The trip is perfectly possible given the right weather, though hard work if it is against you.
 
Pye_End said:
I took a Sonata from Southampton to the Blackwater some years ago, and stopped at Brighton, anchored of Dungeness, then Ramsgate, the Swale, and Blackwater. Lucky with the weather at the time, in a small window over Easter. Nominally the Sonata is also 23ft, with an outboard. The trip is perfectly possible given the right weather, though hard work if it is against you.
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A Sonata goes well up wind, not all cruisers will
 
There are any number of anchorages that can offer a break for a small boats between tides depending on wind direction. Deal in a Westerly.
East of Dungeness in a Westerly. Off Rye in a Northerly. Off Eastbourne in a Northerly but can be bumpy. Off Seaford in an Easterly. Don't forget Newhaven Marina. Off Littlehampton in a Northerly. and off Bognor in a Westerly but I have weathered a F7 Easterly there but it was quite bumpy.
 
thegasmannick said:
thinking of a trip from the orwell to the isle of wight in june wondered if people have any suggested routes as we are going as 3 boat flotila and 1 being a 23ft yacht and they wanting to do short day runs im just looking for suggested trip`s and marina `s that possible reachable in day trip`s
all dependable on weather i know and good marina`s with easy access and no rough entrance`s as 1 yacht is on a outboard and i dont want him having having stressful trip
thanks for any advice
Click to expand...

I did the same trip (almost, Blackwater to Cowes) last summer in a 23ft boat (and singlehanded) and the critical thing is maintaining sufficient boat speed to carry the current. I did a short day from Ramsgate to Dover to improve my chances of a favourable current but still did not get to Eastbourne before the current turned so had to sail very close to the Bexhill coast to make progress for the last hour. Dover to Eastbourne is a long passage with no easy sheltered harbour in between. I got weatherbound for two days in Brighton marina (the entrance is no fun in strong wind, not recommended unless f3 or less) Also, although Chichester harbour is a good first stop in the Solent if you have made the most of the current to get there you will probably then be faced with a hard slog against the ebb to get into the Chichester entrance. Shoreham and Littlehampton are good stopping places with pontoon moorings if needed. Coming home is so much quicker probably with just two overnight stops.

Www.solocoastalsailing.co.uk
 
thegasmannick said:
thinking of a trip from the orwell to the isle of wight in june wondered if people have any suggested routes as we are going as 3 boat flotila and 1 being a 23ft yacht and they wanting to do short day runs im just looking for suggested trip`s and marina `s that possible reachable in day trip`s
all dependable on weather i know and good marina`s with easy access and no rough entrance`s as 1 yacht is on a outboard and i dont want him having having stressful trip
thanks for any advice
Click to expand...

Are you comfortable with routes between the Orwell and Ramsgate? I am not supposed to be advertising on the forum but it is a shame you weren't at the Royal Harwich Yacht Club on Friday morning where I ran a workshop about crossing the Thames Estuary, particularly from Harwich to North Foreland - but it was full anyway. In the book I suggest there are five routes to choose - there are others of course but the five obvious routes. Actually it is perhaps clearer to say there are two obvious routes but one of those routes has four permutations.

1. The Outside Route - north of the Cork Sands, through the Sunk Precautionary Area, clear of the Long Sand Head, outside the Kentish Knock, north of the Thanet Wind Farm to North Foreland/Ramsgate - 46.53nm, the longest route.
2. The Inside Route - out through the Medusa Channel and as direct as you chose to the North Foreland. It needs one of the four permutations to make a decision about the Sunk Sand and the London Array Wind Farm.

2a Via the Little Sunk and Foulger's Gat - the shortest route - 39.07nm but you have to be happy crossing the Sunk Sand at the Little Sunk (typically 2.8m at CD so fine) and using Foulger's Gat (through the Wind Farm - permissible subject to any major maintenance issues at the time). Some people, quite acceptably, are happy not to cross the Sunk Sand or to go through the Wind Farm so....
2b Via the Black Deep and Foulger's Gat - 39.75nm - avoid the Sunk Sand but takes the Wind Farm route;
2c Via the Little Sunk and Fisherman's Gat - 39.87nm - crosses the Sunk Sand and avoids the Wind Farm;
2d Via the Black Deep and Fisherman's Gat - 41.19nm - avoids the Sunk Sand AND the Wind Farm.

The distances are between a waypoint outside of Harwich to outside Ramsgate Harbour.

Quickest route with the quickest start time from the Harwich Waypoint? - Via the Little Sunk and Foulger's Gat - I'll use the 4kt tables (boat average speed on passage) based on the 23ft yacht - 10hrs 09 mins departing the Harwich Waypoint at +5.00 before HW Sheerness on a spring tide (9hrs 54mins on a neap tide). At 5kts it would take 7hrs 36 mins on springs starting at +2.45 Sheerness. Of course, time will be necessary to arrive at the Harwich Waypoint depending from your home berth.

The Outside Route, quickest time at 4 kts springs would take 10hrs 26 minutes departing Harwich Wpt at +0.15 Sheerness. 5kts would achieve 8 hrs 04 minutes duration starting at +1.45 Sheerness.

Those are nominal best start times. Actually more convenient times may still be acceptable durations. Passage from Harwich to the North Foreland suffers from two tide effects - first via the North Sea, secondly from the English Channel - and it isn't synchronized. So the passage, whichever route, has, I suspect, is one of the most complex areas for passage planning in British waters - more dangerous elsewhere of course but picking the sweetest passage timing? For example if you opted for the route via the Black Deep and Fisherman's Gat @ 5 kts I would say 'go whenever you want to go', the worst duration would be 8 hrs 50 minutes, the best 8 hrs 21 minutes. I would endure 40 minutes extra passage time for sleep and breakfast! On that route you cannot win any net tide benefit.

As you can guess, there are some choices! The tables are intended for passage planning - not train timetables. Nothing will be exact but the tables will give you accurate predictions - there the moderators will tell me off.

There is a lot more that can be said but some will have nodded off already. That might look very complicated, indeed over complicated but actually when you have picked your preferred route, passage planning can be unpicked quite quickly.

Where are you based on the Orwell?
 
Couple of points
When crossing from Harwich to Ramsgate make sure you have some favourable tide in hand at the Ramsgate end, the tide runs very hard there and you might end up going backwards in a small boat against an adverse tide.
From Ramsgate to IoW there are long passages against the prevailing wind and it can get pretty rough in wind against tide. About 4 years ago, I went from Harwich to Portsmouth in one leg in our Moody S38 with a couple of mates, we were beating against a F6 all the way, it was blinking hard work and very uncomfortable at times. I still remember dawn breaking as we passed the Royal Sovereign shoals shipping waves over the length of the boat.

The return passage is generally good.

So, partic in a small boat, I'd want a good weather forecast with a decent wind angle, if there's any North in it even better for sea state!
 
You may find our blog of our trip from North Fambridge to Chichester in a 23 footer helpful (or not!)

http://svbrigantia.blogspot.com/2013/05/

and read from the bottom of the page up (messy I know but that's how blogs work). Ignore the speeling errors and weird words here and there (the joys of mobile phone predictive text and speel chuckers)

I would say (as I have said on the thread in PBO) that in hindsight I consider us to have been extremely fortunate with the weather on that trip. Experience over the last two years in our current 33 footer has been that getting into (and out of to a lesser extent) Dover has been rather fraught with sea conditions in the harbour entrances, in relatively modest weather, that I really would not have wanted to encounter in the smaller boat (dig around http://svpagan.blogspot.com/ to find the gory details)
 
jimi said:
So, partic in a small boat, I'd want a good weather forecast with a decent wind angle, if there's any North in it even better for sea state!
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I can't give statistics, but I would say that over the years from about '91 to '14 that we did this trip roughly every other year we managed to get to the Solent (or Cherbourg via Brighton) without have to face headwinds at least half the time, starting from May-August. Even if the weather is contrary for a while, it is not unusual to get wind from the NW, making comfortable progress possible, so I don't think there is any cause for alarm before you even start. It might not work out, but then again, you could have a great trip, as we often did.
 
can i just say thank`s to all for all info ,this all good info and everything taken onboard even printed all the info out for future reference
:encouragement::encouragement::encouragement:
 
We always do:
Day 1 into Dover through Foulgers
Day 2 into Brighton - counter-intuitively it's further than Day 1 by about 10 miles
Day 3 into chosen Solent port - you can reach the IoW instead
Long days - but it breaks the back of the westing and from there you can make Cherbourg in a day too.
 
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