Rigging tension on a trailer sailer - how on earth do I judge it?

[Reptile Smile]

I just spent a happy morning buying a cheap Copland Foxcub, and putting the mast and rigging back on. Having never had to mast/dismast anything before, I haven't the first idea of how much tension there should be in the shrouds. Not slack, of course, but what should I be aiming for at the other end?

(One draughty old boy at the club suggested it should be produce a low D when twanged...)

 

[sailorman]

http://uk.search-results.com/web?l=...9:q=how+to+set+up+boat+rigging:src=ffb:o=1921

selden also have info on their site

 

[VicS]

Deleted
.

 

[BAtoo]

Selden guide is good.

Always tighter than you think.

Then mark it so next time its just a reconnect job.

HINT: a bit of backstay tension may make it easier to slot the shrouds in when the mast is up.

 

[RobF]

So long as you tighten the shrouds with small handtools, you should be ok. Aim for about 3 inches of leverage (i.e. your hand should be 3 inches away from the bottle screw whilst you're tightening). Tighten until you feel a reasonable amount of resistance. Keep a good eye on the rig as you tighten.

If you're lucky, someone at your club will have a rig tension gauge.

 

[Fantasie 19]

Pay £20 or £30 and get a rigger in to set it up for you.... not only that, he'll also tell you if the rigging's any good..... trust me - not something you want to get wrong...

 

[srp]

As it's a trailer sailer I assume you put the mast up several times in a season - probably a good idea to get a rig tension gauge I would think. The Selden rigging guide is extremely useful the first time you set it up, and if you use the gauge as well, you can then note all the figures for next time.

http://www.saltyjohn.co.uk/riggingtensiongauge.htm
http://www.riggingandsails.com/pdf/selden-tuning.pdf

 

[Lakesailor]

First.
Is it a Mk 1 or Mk 11?
I had a Mk1 and can tell you that it will very likely have some sag in the coachroof. There is a 1" steel tube frame built into the roof to take compression loads and it doesn't do it very well.
The Mk 11 has a smaller rig and a compression post in the cabin to overcome the sag problem.
If it's a Mk1 and has the aluminium shoe for the mast step rather than a pivot bolt you may want to think about installing a pivot if you are really thinking about trailer sailing. If it's the bilge keeler you still need a good slipway and a bit of depth to launch, and if you read other posts about launching and recovering you may find a 4x4 is a good bet.

The mast set-up is pretty easy.
Set the rake first ( a couple or so inches aft at the top)using forestay and backstay. Get the mast vertical across the beam of the boat using the cap shrouds and use the lowers to get your mast bend last. Tighten the forward lowers to introduce the bend and tighten the aft lowers to maintain that amount. Use the main halyard pulled tight down the luff groove to make sure you have the lowers tightened equally each side and haven't introduced any sideways bend.
You only need enough to suit the cut of the mainsail luff.
The aft lowers are really only there to restrain the mast from popping forward.

I never tightened my rigging to the sorts of tension that is always suggested in deference to the age of the boat. Once you have it about right tape the threads on the rigging screws so you can roughly duplicate the settings and strum the rigging to get an idea how tight it sounds. Literally tune your rigging. It's only a small rig and the loads are not enormous.

Great boats. Sail beautifully. Windows leak like buggers!

 

[Reptile Smile]

Thanks to all for their replies.

I presume that's a mark 1, right? Great to have your input, Lakesailor, as a previous owner, and thanks for your detailed reply. And yes, I thought replacing the starboard window with a colander might be more effective.

Can I ask one more question? I can't make head nor tail of the boom attachment. The 'car' clearly fits into the mast track, but nothing seems to be holding up. There's nothing stopping it sagging at the mast end straight down to the coachroof. I don't get it..? Surely there's some kind of stop or mechanism to hold it in place?

 

[VicS]

Same gooseneck fitting as mine. similar if not the same mast

There would have been a ( split) pin that supported the boom when not sailing.

It would have been bit of light line attached to the mast by the pop rivet you can see on the side of the mast.

There may also have been one immediately above the sail entry point to support the sliders if the sail is on sliders .

Look for some holes in through the track where the pins would have been. (6mm diam IIRC)

I have a topping lift from the boom end fitting over a sheave at the mast head and down to one of the mast cleats .... that supports the end of the boom


This picture shows where mine is supported but you cannot actually see the pin

 

[Lakesailor]

Yep. My mast was a bit different, but my earlier Valiant had the same arrangement.
You have a little lug for a downhaul so you can tension your main halyard against it. The only problem you will have is, as you say, when you drop the main the boom will slide down the mast. It may not be elegant, but just wrap a bungee luggage strap around the mast to prevent the boom slipping down. Hoist the main. Pull the boom down to properly tension the luff using the downhaul you are going to fit. Wrap the bungee slightly below the boom fitting so it's not impeding sail setting, but catches the boom when you drop the main. Job done.

Two hints.
Make sure the bungee on the anchor locker cover is well fastened. Once lost, never recovered.
Climb inside the cockpit locker (either) and check the nuts holding the rudder pintles on the transom are tight. If the bottom one comes off the boat starts to fill with water (I know this).

It is a Mk1. They were a bit better than the Mk11. The Mk1 was a genuine Uffa Fox design, the Mk11 was a development by Copeland. I seem to think it was less flat in the after sections and had a shorter mast.

 

[William_H]

New boat

Congratulations on the new boat. Phil (Lakesailer) obviously has a lot of good advice on this type.
The rigging tension in my opinion does not need to be so tight overall. It will still exhibit slack lee shrouds when hard pressed due to stretch and hull distortion. It is important to get the relative tensions correct to keep mast straight ie inner to cap shroud relationship. Also the relationship of fore to aft inner shrouds to keep mast straight in fore and aft direction.
I would suggest you modify the mast base so that the mast can be tilted back on a pivot. Use a pair of poles (spinacker poles are good) and use a tackle to lift mast up. There is a lot of stuff on this forum and web on mast raising on bigger boats. If you use this method even though you can juggle/ raise the mast by hand you will find it all a lot easier. So no accidents.
I would suggest you then replace the bottle screws on the forward inner shrouds and the forestay with high field levers or perhaps pelican hooks. (as used to tension safety lines on bigger boats) Both these devices work on the same over centre principle so quickly and easily reproduce the same length every time.
You will need a mast crutch for the stern and I made mine to have two levels ie one crutch off to the side the top one being ona sliding removable tube. The mast travels on the low one but I lift it up to the high crutch before connecting the base and raising the mast. (high being about 1 metre higher than low.)

I reckon you will find rigging the mast takes no time at all when you arrive at the slip. My 21fter with 26ft mast is no problem at all although it is easier with 2 people when engaging the mast base. obviously for transport the mast base is pulled forward to hang in a rope cradle under the bow rail to minimise overhang.
good luck olewill

 

[merlin3688]

I think this is a good idea,
I would suggest you modify the mast base so that the mast can be tilted back on a pivot. Use a pair of poles (spinacker poles are good) and use a tackle to lift mast up. There is a lot of stuff on this forum and web on mast raising on bigger boats. If you use this method even though you can juggle/ raise the mast by hand you will find it all a lot easier. So no accidents.
If you do need some tubes I have some scratched 2" tubes which I cannot use as spinnaker poles which are going cheap, PM me if of interest to you.
Not sure on your location but someone said about getting a local rigger to check the rigging over, this is worth doing just so you know your boat is safe and ready to go out in any weather. I guess your rigging is 4mm so not a big cost to change the rigging if need be. Hope this helps.

 

[Fantasie 19]

I think this is a good idea,
I would suggest you modify the mast base so that the mast can be tilted back on a pivot. Use a pair of poles (spinacker poles are good) and use a tackle to lift mast up.

Tabernacle or mast foot that can swivel on a bolt is definitely worth doing...

On mine (19' with a 22' mast) rather than tubes I went to B&Q and bought a couple of 2x3's, bolted them together at one end, and use my main sheet for tackle...

Google "A frame" and you should get lots of info....

 

[Lakesailor]

The OP hasn't said if he is trailer-sailing on a regular basis. If it's just beginning and end of season there is no reason not to carry on with the existing set-up. Especially as he seems to be at a club.
If launch/recovery is going to be a way of life a tabernacle with a pivot possibly a foot up would be a good move. You can get them made from sheet aluminium or stainless by a fabricator and drill and sleeve the mast for the pivot bolt.
Makes the job so much easier. I made a crane to lift my mast (on the water) It was a bit scarey single-handed.
I had a block above the spreaders and lifted the mast vertically. Then as I lowered it I walked the foot to the bow ending up with the mast laid on the coachroof and pulpit/pushpits.

 

[VicS]

Just visible in the OPs photos is the same type of mast step that i have... I think... with a pivot bolt.

Looks like an SS Spars mast.

If relying on a pivot bolt its essential to be certain about the integrity of the fastenings as these can have high shear loads on them while raising the mast esp if hauled up using a tackle on the forestay

 

[Reptile Smile]

Really am so grateful for all the help being offered here.

Yes, the mast pivoted on the bolt. We attached the aft stay, and the shrouds (so that only the fore stay was unattached), and sent someone off down the (parallel) quayside with a line attached to jib halyard, and she came up sweet as a nut. It was disarmingly simple.

I'm thrilled to bits with her. I am, I should point out, still at the 'fettling and cleaning' stage, and the real test will be next weekend, when I'll put her through the short but brutal journey across the Bristol channel to her new mooring. Exciting times...

There'a no kicking strap on her, but then the downhaul attaches to lug on the bottom of the boom, so I suppose this achieves the same as a kicking strap anyway.

Have I got this right?

Just a few more bits and pieces to take care of this week - I don't trust the ageing tiller, so think I'll try to construct a new one, and a couple of bits of deck hardware are either missing or broken. Aside from that, she's remarkably together, and - I think - a cracking little boat, for almost no money...

 

[sailorman]

Really am so grateful for all the help being offered here.

Yes, the mast pivoted on the bolt. We attached the aft stay, and the shrouds (so that only the fore stay was unattached), and sent someone off down the (parallel) quayside with a line attached to jib halyard, and she came up sweet as a nut. It was disarmingly simple.

I'm thrilled to bits with her. I am, I should point out, still at the 'fettling and cleaning' stage, and the real test will be next weekend, when I'll put her through the short but brutal journey across the Bristol channel to her new mooring. Exciting times...

There'a no kicking strap on her, but then the downhaul attaches to lug on the bottom of the boom, so I suppose this achieves the same as a kicking strap anyway.

Have I got this right?

Just a few more bits and pieces to take care of this week - I don't trust the ageing tiller, so think I'll try to construct a new one, and a couple of bits of deck hardware are either missing or broken. Aside from that, she's remarkably together, and - I think - a cracking little boat, for almost no money...

a kicker or vang controls the main sl leach off the wind

 

[VicS]

There'a no kicking strap on her, but then the downhaul attaches to lug on the bottom of the boom, so I suppose this achieves the same as a kicking strap anyway.

Have I got this right?

No the down haul tensions the mainsail luff....... I am not enthusiastic about the system. I'd rather have a fixed position for the boom and tension the halyard with a small winch. The sliding goose neck is in many ways a PITA.

The kicker is to control the boom, to stop it lifting and keep the sail shape under control when off the wind.
IMHO its vital although often not fitted in the past. You'd not find a serious sailing dinghy without a kicker.

I fitted one using a claw ring at first.. it also needed a guy to the end of the boom.

Converted to slab reefing many years ago and was then able to ditch the claw ring ( well sold it actually) and fit the kicker directly to the boom with a keyhole plate. You can see it in the picture I posted earlier in post #10

 

[Reptile Smile]

And in fairness, Lakesailor's picture earlier on (post 8) shows his with a kicker. Guess I need to fit one soonish then. I didn't check for the attachment on the bottom of the boom, though there is somewhere at the mast foot I could shackle a block without it getting in the way of anything, IIRC. Back at the boat tomorrow - will check then...