Return to commercial sailing ships

[Dave 71]

Found this article interesting

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-66300187

I like the idea of it, but really it can only be niche, and moving premium 'artisan' products that then sell for a premium price, and I cant see too many retailers wanting to tie up capital in 6 months of stock in case the ship is late. And using a sailing barge to move olives and coffee from Kent to London isn't going to dent the transport impact of getting it to the UK in the first place, a gimmick, unless it was moving local Kentish produce taken to the wharf by an electric vehicle or horse drawn cart.

 

[Snowgoose-1]

Well found.
Could also be supplemented with paying crew members.
I would be up for it. Providing the skipper doesn't go too far and start flogging us.

 

[newtothis]

With a carrying capacity equivalent to 3.5 20 ft containers, it's not going to make a great dent in the global shipping industry.

 

[capnsensible]

Can you imagine their skippers forum? Spending time stuck in harbour coz of the latest gale, moaning about the weather, arguing over anchors and finding all sorts of bizarre reasons for not carrying safety equipment?

 

[MisterBaxter]

The fundamental problem is return on capital, the cost per tonne of cargo capacity for a sailing vessel is an order of magnitude higher than for a big cargo ship, but the income from each delivery is spread over a longer period of maintenance and depreciation.

 

[lustyd]

Even if we ignored the obvious issues with size and speed, there aren't enough old sailing cargo boats to refit to meet capacity. That leads to the question of whether scrapping the enormous fleet of container ships and building an unimaginable number of new sailing boats would be more or less eco-friendly than the status quo.

More realistically, I think we'll see levies placed on cargo transport globally to force other solutions. Those other solutions will likely involve more local manufacture and recycling (initially paid for with those levies, turned into grants), as well as reducing the quantity of cheap tat people buy that doesn't fulfil its purpose.

 

[Stemar]

The real solution is to stop buying fast fashion that's worn a few times and replaced, and other unnecessary tat from the far east. There will always be a need for efficient sea transport, but if we reduce it to a minimum, it'll be good for everyone. Same with the billion airline passenger capacity mentioned in the other thread. Accept that the days of jetting to Phuket for a holiday or Vegas for a fancy wedding are over, and we'll have a chance of keeping the planet habitable. It'll also be good for our bank balances!

 

[westernman]

The real solution is to stop buying fast fashion that's worn a few times and replaced, and other unnecessary tat from the far east. There will always be a need for efficient sea transport, but if we reduce it to a minimum, it'll be good for everyone. Same with the billion airline passenger capacity mentioned in the other thread. Accept that the days of jetting to Phuket for a holiday or Vegas for a fancy wedding are over, and we'll have a chance of keeping the planet habitable. It'll also be good for our bank balances!

Jetting somewhere in Europe is cheaper than taking the train. Sometimes an order of magnitude cheaper.

 

[14K478]

You can save a lot of fuel by slowing merchant ships down. Bigger ships are much more fuel efficient per ton of cargo moved than are smaller ships. Ships are more fuel efficient than any other way of moving goods.

And…

Why I’m backing a return to sailing ships - Splash247

 

[AntarcticPilot]

Basically, while wind power may well be part of the solution, if it can't be integrated with containers and not require a large increase in crew, it won't happen on any large scale. SO whatever happens, it won't look like the kind of boat most of us imagine when we say "sailing boat". I can imagine Flettner rotors or perhaps kite sails being part of the solution, but forget anything looking like a conventional rig; it would impact the loading and unloading of containers too greatly and require too large a crew. Anything that can't take containers simply can't compete. Remember too that proportionally, a large container vessel is less polluting per container/mile than a smaller one. There's also little issues like requiring retraining the vast majority of commercial crew; there are very few"Masters under sail" available, and they work on sail training or heritage vessels, without commercial imperatives!

 

[dunedin]

Meanwhile Calmac were testing their new green ferry at Tarbert Harris yesterday ....

 

[lustyd]

and other unnecessary tat from the far east.

From ANYWHERE. The far east isn't the problem, the problem is buying unnecessary crap that doesn't fill a need or doesn't function as required. It makes no difference whether it's from the far east or the north of England, it's still unnecessary use of resources.

 

[14K478]

Basically, while wind power may well be part of the solution, if it can't be integrated with containers and not require a large increase in crew, it won't happen on any large scale. SO whatever happens, it won't look like the kind of boat most of us imagine when we say "sailing boat". I can imagine Flettner rotors or perhaps kite sails being part of the solution, but forget anything looking like a conventional rig; it would impact the loading and unloading of containers too greatly and require too large a crew. Anything that can't take containers simply can't compete. Remember too that proportionally, a large container vessel is less polluting per container/mile than a smaller one. There's also little issues like requiring retraining the vast majority of commercial crew; there are very few"Masters under sail" available, and they work on sail training or heritage vessels, without commercial imperatives!

I see a place for fast sailing ships.

I also see a place for nuclear power, for big long distance ships. There is an active lobby for this.

 

[Kelpie]

Jetting somewhere in Europe is cheaper than taking the train. Sometimes an order of magnitude cheaper.

This seems to be a worse problem in the UK than elsewhere.
France have banned short haul flights where there is a rail alternative.
Somebody should Rishi that next time he gets on his private jet or helicopter.

 

[lustyd]

This seems to be a worse problem in the UK than elsewhere.
France have banned short haul flights where there is a rail alternative.
Somebody should Rishi that next time he gets on his private jet or helicopter.

Certainly is a UK problem. We have a solution (HS2) and an intent to ban short haul flights, but due to the newspapers the message has been kept from the public who are regularly worked up into a froth about HS2 being pointless and expensive.

For some reason we're heading directly towards a ban on short haul with no alternative being in place.

 

[steve yates]

Certainly is a UK problem. We have a solution (HS2) and an intent to ban short haul flights, but due to the newspapers the message has been kept from the public who are regularly worked up into a froth about HS2 being pointless and expensive.

For some reason we're heading directly towards a ban on short haul with no alternative being in place.

It is pointless and expensive now because it has been so bastardised. The original plan was well worth it.

 

[newtothis]

Even if we ignored the obvious issues with size and speed, there aren't enough old sailing cargo boats to refit to meet capacity. That leads to the question of whether scrapping the enormous fleet of container ships and building an unimaginable number of new sailing boats would be more or less eco-friendly than the status quo.

More realistically, I think we'll see levies placed on cargo transport globally to force other solutions. Those other solutions will likely involve more local manufacture and recycling (initially paid for with those levies, turned into grants), as well as reducing the quantity of cheap tat people buy that doesn't fulfil its purpose.

Scrapping and replacing with sail won't happen. Some sectors are playing around with Flettner rotors and other sail-like tech (rigid wing sails etc) but they tend to not work on box ships, particularly, due to cargo constraints.
The solutions that are coming involve burning net-zero fuels, either green methanol, ammonia or eLNG. All have their challenges but that is the route long-haul commercial shipping is going, with vessels being delivered as we speak.
Carbon levies come as early as next year in the form of the EU ETS regs as an incentive for shipowners to develop less environmentally damaging propulsion and to level the playing field. Cheap tat will become less cheap, but this is relative when you consider the shipping cost of a £100 pair of sneakers from China is about £1.
As much as earnest chaps in Breton caps might enjoy their hobby pottering around in old ships with a bit of niche cargo, this is not the way shipping will decarbonise.

 

[newtothis]

I see a place for fast sailing ships.

I also see a place for nuclear power, for big long distance ships. There is an active lobby for this.

There is an active lobby, but most people in the industry think he is batshit crazy. And if you've ever seen a boxship on fire, you'd understand there is no place for nukes at sea. I'm all for SMRs on land providing bulk electricity to turn water into hydrogen to mix with captured carbon to make methanol, but not as a power unit for something that can crash, sink or catch fire.

 

[lustyd]

for something that can crash, sink or catch fire.

or worse. Generally best not to let reactors go anywhere terrorists can get at them easily, which I suspect is why we only see them on military boats

 

[westernman]

or worse. Generally best not to let reactors go anywhere terrorists can get at them easily, which I suspect is why we only see them on military boats

There are about 2500 of these very small nuclear "generators" strewn across the Russian countryside.
They were often used to power remote light houses.