Retro-fit chain locker ?

Thanks to you and to Tranona for the interest and advice. I am aware that I will need to spend some money, and as as can be seen from the title of the thread I also know I will have to spend money knocking whatever I do buy into shape. I think that will be true however much or little I spend on the boat itself. However, I don't take such a pessimistic view of things as to think because something is not easy I should just decide to want to do something else.

And to put things in context, a new stem fitting and bow roller together with a chain locker is not acme of redesign that some of the replies here are making out : Compared with the cost of say a sprayed paint job or a new rig or engine it is relatively minor. As I have said above I just need to get an idea of the relative cost and difficulty of jobs like this so I can make valid comparissons between different boats.

I have decided not to undergo a two step approach to buying a boat because the process of looking for one is not something I want to repeat. Given that it will cost more and take twice as much effort as well that seems completely pointless.

But these are all by the by - this thread is about how much it will cost to have a new stem fitting and bow roller made up and a chain locker glassed in and I only have one, finger in the air, estimate for the first part of that of around 1k (thanks again Tranona).

I still need to know roughly what it will cost to have someone glass up a chain locker and fit a chainpipe so if anyone can give rough estimates for that then please feel free to pipe up.

Boo2
 
Ubergeekian said:
I'm sorry if it came across badly.
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Absolutely no apologies necessary, either from you or from anyone else who has gone to the effort of helping me refine my ideas. I'm very grateful and I must apologise for seeming unresponsive to ideas sometimes. But I have decided what my goal is and I think that the boats I am considering are a good match. I am of course interested to hear alternatives but I hope no-one minds me saying that 1) I need to be able to afford them and 2) They have to take me to my stated goal.

Ubergeekian said:
It's just that you seem to have rather set views on what you want based on next-to-no sailing experience: since gaining such experience will inevitable change your expectations I think you might be advised to hold off just a little bit on the major commitment.
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I don't know why you say I have set ideas on the way forward on this ? I have examined many options including self-build, fitting out a hull, complete renovation and second hand older boats. These are all my pocket will allow, and a second hand boat in good basic condition but needing some manageable work seems to be the cheapest by far of all my options.

Doing it twice, the first time wrongly is not an affordable option for me because I don't expect my financial situation to improve with time.

So it's now or never for me. And from what I've read a 197x IOR style boat makes a good short-handed cruiser with excellent windward ability. If that information is wrong then please correct me and feel free to suggest alternatives, but I am not intending to live out anyone elses' dreams or pursue another person's goals or enjoy another mans good fortune or high salary, so I do need any advice to be pertinent to my intentions.

Cordially,

Boo2
 
Quandary said:
Baltic made boats like ours are sold at home without anchor rollers, though most do have large anchor lockers, for the UK market Finngulf fit a fairly compact single stainless steel anchor roller but it is offset to starboard though parallel to the centreline, it looks as if you may have similar space beside the forestay fitting. If it will help I can take and post a picture of the narrow but apparently sturdy stainless steel fitting on our foredeck.
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Hi Quandrary,

I overlooked your post before but I would be keen to have a look at a photo of the arrangements you describe.

Thanks,

Boo2
 
Boo2 said:
Hi Quandrary,

I overlooked your post before but I would be keen to have a look at a photo of the arrangements you describe.

Thanks,

Boo2
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I will try to post a picture over the weekend, meantime if you go on to the Finngulf oy website you will see pictures of a 33 without a bow fitting and of a 37 (similar deck) with one fitted. Note that Finngulfs do have large anchor lockers, it is because of the different (non tidal) condition in the Baltic that chain is more rarely used so roller and guides are not fitted there.
I still think it may be worth pondering some of the advice given above before rejecting it, your posts give the impression that perhaps you may be embarking on this without having done an awful lot of sailing. Most experienced sailors would not be attempting the modification you are trying when most boats on the market don't need it. I can guarantee that opinions change with knowledge gained from experience. If you are seriously interested in sailing and only ever buy one boat which you have chosen with the limited experience of a beginner you will be close to unique.
 
Picture

Rain is on so I am back, Picture of offset bow roller.

I presume you intend to place a chain hawse pipe in line with the roller guide to take the chain below the forecabin berths, this will compromise them considerably and you also have the potential problems of jamming and smell.( the locker will have to drain to your shallow bilge)
However, attempting to retrofit an anchor locker is not something I would recommend. (It should be at least 20" deep if a windlass is to be fitted and when you are crashing into a big sea may fill with water making a load of at least half a ton going up and down like a jack hammer. It is not a safe DIY project for the inexperienced as it could sink the boat. As well as structurally risky it is also cosmetically difficult and could completely compromise the value of the boat. the below deck option would be much easier cheaper and would be a lot less risky.) I have had experience of quite a small leak around the upper rim of a moulded anchor locker, which in one afternoons really heavy weather beating completely filled the forecabin voids with water and then allowed about a foot into the main cabin, before we started pumping. The hawse pipe is much safer and could be removed if needed.
Think very seriously before attempting this, for what its worth, if you can find a yard to do it right, I suspect they will want at least £1k.
 
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Boo2 said:
So it's now or never for me. And from what I've read a 197x IOR style boat makes a good short-handed cruiser with excellent windward ability. If that information is wrong then please correct me and feel free to suggest alternatives, but I am not intending to live out anyone elses' dreams or pursue another person's goals or enjoy another mans good fortune or high salary, so I do need any advice to be pertinent to my intentions.

Cordially,

Boo2
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Not sure where you have read that, but suspect that it is one person's opinion (rather like many posts here!), but as both Quandray and I have said, probably not true. He of course has much more experience of sailing this type of boat and my experience is watching them in their heyday with 6 burly blokes on the rail going to wind and weaving and broaching going downwind because of their narrow rule cheating sterns. Never mind the huge winches needed to control the genoas!. Not perhaps a good basis for a long distance single handed boat!

Step down a size to around 30 ft and a whole new set of alternatives open up with cruiser racers of the same era came into frame. Less accommodation - but still enough for a single hander, much more manageable rig and gear and easier on the wallet both to buy and upgrade. A top notch David Thomas designed Elizabethan 30 would cost way less than the UFO you are looking at. You have to remember that in the 1970s a 30 footer was considered a substantial boat and many were designed for and capable of serious ocean use.

Personal opinion again, but better to achieve successfully a slightly more modest ambition than to fail in an over ambitious one!
 
Tranona said:
Not sure where you have read that, but suspect that it is one person's opinion (rather like many posts here!), but as both Quandray and I have said, probably not true. He of course has much more experience of sailing this type of boat and my experience is watching them in their heyday with 6 burly blokes on the rail going to wind and weaving and broaching going downwind because of their narrow rule cheating sterns. Never mind the huge winches needed to control the genoas!. Not perhaps a good basis for a long distance single handed boat!
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Well, there are loads of posts on these forums saying the UFO 34 makes a good cruiser :

http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20612 post 5, 12 etc
http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?t=225846 post 2
http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?t=124835 posts 4, 14 etc

And many others.

I don't think Lewmar 43's are "huge winches", pretty average and no bigger than what I've used on a First 36.7. And 6 burly blokes on the rail with more sail up than she can really handle is not something that an Elizabethan 30 will look comfortable with either. I am going cruising, not racing and will put up sail to suit my abilities and the weather.

I don't rule out a 30 foot boat, but if I can get something with a longer waterline then I will - be a bit more seakindly I recon, and more suitable for my long term aim.

Boo2
 
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Quandary said:
Rain is on so I am back, Picture of offset bow roller.
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Thanks, that looks like a reasonable proposition anyway.

Quandary said:
I presume you intend to place a chain hawse pipe in line with the roller guide to take the chain below the forecabin berths, this will compromise them considerably and you also have the potential problems of jamming and smell.( the locker will have to drain to your shallow bilge)
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Well, that or a windlass and a vertical drop through a chainpipe into an existing forepeak locker glassed up to make it a better proposition for chain, weed, mud etc.

Quandary said:
However, attempting to retrofit an anchor locker is not something I would recommend. (It should be at least 20" deep if a windlass is to be fitted and when you are crashing into a big sea may fill with water making a load of at least half a ton going up and down like a jack hammer. It is not a safe DIY project for the inexperienced as it could sink the boat.
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As I said in my post I am looking for alternatives and estimates for having the work done professionally. My major concern with an anchor locker set into the decks would be the fit of the doors and also the substantial changes required to the forepeak area as well as the resulting loss of internal space. Anchor mounts on deck do look like a sensible alternative to that.



Quandary said:
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Think very seriously before attempting this, for what its worth, if you can find a yard to do it right, I suspect they will want at least £1k.
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I would certainly give it much thought before proceeding. £1k + £1k for the steelwork is a lot and I don't suppose the vendor will be enthusiastic about knocking it off of the price either so...

Boo2
 
Tranona said:
A top notch David Thomas designed Elizabethan 30 would cost way less than the UFO you are looking at. You have to remember that in the 1970s a 30 footer was considered a substantial boat and many were designed for and capable of serious ocean use.
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And while we are here :

"Got to take you to task on this one. This is all second-hand rubbish by armchair sailors who like to tell a good tale. My previous boat was an Elizabethan 29 and are usually well regarded by those at the bar who know of the type. Downwind in this boat could at times be a nightmare rolling so bad that first the boom end was in the water followed very quickly by the end of the spinnaker pole. I have never had this situation with the UFO 31 and in any case tiller response is so much quicker than the long keeled boat giving more control and more confidence."

From http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20612 post 13.

So I don't think it is a panacea to drop down in size.

Boo2
 
Suspect you have rose tinted spectacles on at the moment. If you re-read your referenced posts you could find just as much justification for dismissing this boat as for accepting it. Poor build quality, wayward handling downwind just as much as "I had one and loved it". The "lot of boat for the money" could just as easily be "nobody wants to take on this boat so the price has to be low" - and probably is! The fact remains that they were not dsesigned for what you want to do so will inevtably be a compromise.

There are two issues - first is the suitability of the basic design - and this boat was not designed for single handed ocean voyaging. Secondly there is condition in relation to the budget you have - and old racers are arguably more expensive to upgrade than more cruising orientated designs.

All I am suggesting is that a smaller boat is more likely to meet your requirements in a limited budget. Your "one and only" decision is high risk - whatever you buy will be "wrong" in some ways because you don't have the experience to know what is right for you. A more conservative approach is likely to minimise the impact of being "wrong"!
 
I am not sure this will be much help as you seem to have your mind made up.
But as Tranona says in the 70s boats designed for handicap racing were shaped to take max. advantage of the measurement rule. They were not designed to be easy to sail just to exceed their rating, that was what won handicap races. Boats that were designed for pure speed performance, like the beautiful X119 for instance, were not competitive on the IOR so went one design. The racing boats did not need anchor lockers, they did not need mainsheets or kickers that could be dumped by the helm when they broached and they did not need manageable headsails that his wife could grind in, because there were seven or eight guys, each fully employed to do all that. I have permanent restricted movement in my neck and shoulders caused by trying to control big gybes shorthanded on smaller boats than a UFO34, so I know what can happen. If you took one of these boats out on your own you needed to shorten sail to handle it comfortably, you were then usually slower than the cruiser designed to handle and carry her canvas through a much wider range.
Like you, I like big rigs and have a 50' mast on a 33' boat but I don't intend going round the world in it. It is modern with a smooth run aft and a much higher part of the drive coming from the main and the systems to control it like single line in boom reefing, but we still reef in 18 or so knots of wind, a bit of a pain if you are doing long off shore shorthanded passages and want to keep moving safely while you sleep. The UFO 34 is a fine boat, I recall being really impressed sitting inside the massive empty hull of one at the Dublin Boat show but at the time I had a Trapper 300, another hull distorted by Bruce Kirby to meet the quarter ton rule, so massive genoas, pinched ends and broaching did not seem silly then. Think about the reason why some boats are much cheaper for their size, could it be because less people want them, can you think of a reason why that should be?
 
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