Retirement cruiser 40-48' - thoughts?

[siwhi]

Sugar scoop is a pretty specific term, do you mean easy access at the stern, or specifically a sugar scoop? Many designers seem to favour a folding platform now rather than sugar scoop

I was describing our boat (Moody 44) which has a sugar scoop in common with many CC boats of that era. Any access from the stern (including a fold down transom) is preferable to coming alongside in a dinghy in chop. Though I know that many people that do that are used to it and don't find it an issue.

 

[rotrax]

One of the things we love about our Island Packet SP Cruiser is the 'easy on, easy off' from the large built in rear swim platform.

No more climbing up the freeboard. Getting into the dink is a doddle.

As long as you dont have a privacy complex the large and comfortable Pilot House with its sliding windows gives an all round view of what is going on.

Apart from two instances of coming alongside in heavy rain, our wet weather gear has stayed in its locker for four years.

As I said, it works for us.

After 50 years of motorcycling First Mate and I have NVQ level five in cold and wet.

Sailing, like Mororcycling, is best enjoyed, not endured.

 

[dunedin]

Thank you for all your generous and detailed replies.
In no particular order I'll address some of the points raised (apologies for the summaries - there is too much for a detailed reply to everything posted!).

1. We have nothing actually against aft cockpits - all our previous boats have been AC - it's just that we are now feeling our age and 'communal' living aboard is no longer attractive - we want at least part of the boat to be 'our space' if and when we ever get visitors / kid

As you raise the age factor, one thing to bear in mind is that a centre cockpit inevitably has more steps down into the cabin. And as the companionway is further forward, many builders make them steeper to avoid using up more saloon length. Plus inevitably there is more climb and more trip points getting on board stern to. Much less steps coming into a stern cockpit and down into the cabin, which knees and hips may be thankful for!

Plus when you get above 40 foot, there is a lot to be said for an owners cabin in the bow, particularly if they have a sail locker ahead of the bow cabin so more width at the front. Further away from noisy quay, and no stern wave slap. (Though less comfortable on ocean passage, but you are not planning one of these, and can use stern and saloon berths en voyage.). Guests and kids in the stern cabins.

I would suggest adding an Xc42 or Xc45 onto your list, great boats - though you may be tempted into doing the Atlantic crossing again on one of these fast cruisers.

 

[Crisby]

How about a nice Moody 42 cc that has just been listed for sale on the Moody Owner’s Association? It did the ARC 2020 and is in St Lucia at the mo. We were moored alongside her in Preveza in the summer and he had spent a lot of money getting her ready. No other connection.
Moody 40/42 (late 90s early 00s) - Moody 42 CC Built 2000 FOR SALE

Chris

 

[Robih]

We all think our own choices are best of course but we find our choice rewarding to sail and comfortable to be on board. We believe her to be an excellent cruising yacht. This one isn’t ours:

http://www.maloyachts.co.uk/images/uploads/M43_Pandora.pdf

 

[Sybarite]

Time for a (new to us) boat for retirement.

Essentials;
At least one (preferably two) 'harbour' beds with proper mattresses and side access.
Reasonable weather protection so either pilothouse or centre cockpit with screen and cover at least.
Reasonable access to dinghy and dock so either opening transom or decent steps (not ladder).
Handled by two so decent reefing all led back. Self tacking jib nice but not essential. Easy motion, boat to provide 'she can take much more than us' confidence factor.
Decent motor to maintain hull speed in all but worst weather so 3-4 Hp/Ton.
Going by other threads - probably UK/Med in summers and winters Caribbean by either ship or delivery crew (haven't done a transatlantic since 1980 and no desire to).
Known brand for (relatively) easy re-sale as I'm not getting any younger - no one off's or custom builds.

Thinking maybe;
Bottom of budget - Beneteau 40/44 Oceanis CC - would need to be a very up together solid grp version.
Middle budget -Hylas 44, Moody 425, Wauquiez 43 PH.
Top end Moody 46 CC etc.

Thoughts on the above or any alternatives?

Amel Santorin :

46'
Centre cockpit. Sloop and ketch alternatives.
Two double cabins each en suite. 'Each with two singles convertible into doubles.
Generous storage
High quality build at a fraction of the price of an Oyster.
Designed so that physical strength is not a specific requirement (electric power with physical back-ups.)
A scaled down "Delos" (46' instead of 53') but same disposition.
No wood outside for simpler maintenance.
Vente Amel Santorin occasion - Voilier Quillard à GRUISSAN, France | Youboat FR

 

[geem]

Amel Santorin :

46'
Centre cockpit. Sloop and ketch alternatives.
Two double cabins each en suite. 'Each with two singles convertible into doubles.
Generous storage
High quality build at a fraction of the price of an Oyster.
Designed so that physical strength is not a specific requirement (electric power with physical back-ups.)
A scaled down "Delos" (46' instead of 53') but same disposition.
No wood outside for simpler maintenance.
Vente Amel Santorin occasion - Voilier Quillard à GRUISSAN, France | Youboat FR

They are also really slow

 

[Sybarite]

They are also really slow

Here is an extract from a Yachting Monthly review :

Would she suit you and your crew?

The Amel philososphy has produced a distinctive range of yachts that are all remarkably similar in appearance. Historically, Amel offered very short options lists as everything had been thought through on the drawing board and included in the standard spec.

If you like tweaking and getting an extra few degrees on the wind, the Santorin 46 simply doesn't offer enough bits of string to pull. However, if you love sailing but have had enough of being ‘jet- washed' in an open cockpit, Amels are well worth considering. Like driving an automatic car, you will quickly get used to not having to work on the foredeck, instead letting the boat do it for you.

Amel's closest competitor is probably Oyster. Amel owners would assert that their boat is better suited to shorthanded sailing, and at roughly half the price (used), the French boat represents remarkable value, although still not cheap. Should you find the spare change to buy one, you'll soon be leaving the miles churning in your wake, and ice for the cocktails will already be in the freezer.

Verdict

For a couple who want to go adventuring in a yacht they can entirely rely upon and which will deliver them across oceans safely and not exhausted, you couldn’t find a better boat. Read review#rEbbrVKO4m7GRY2e.99more at Reviews Archive - Yachting Monthly

 

[scruff]

Here is an extract from a Yachting Monthly review :

Would she suit you and your crew?

The Amel philososphy has produced a distinctive range of yachts that are all remarkably similar in appearance. Historically, Amel offered very short options lists as everything had been thought through on the drawing board and included in the standard spec.

If you like tweaking and getting an extra few degrees on the wind, the Santorin 46 simply doesn't offer enough bits of string to pull. However, if you love sailing but have had enough of being ‘jet- washed' in an open cockpit, Amels are well worth considering. Like driving an automatic car, you will quickly get used to not having to work on the foredeck, instead letting the boat do it for you.

Amel's closest competitor is probably Oyster. Amel owners would assert that their boat is better suited to shorthanded sailing, and at roughly half the price (used), the French boat represents remarkable value, although still not cheap. Should you find the spare change to buy one, you'll soon be leaving the miles churning in your wake, and ice for the cocktails will already be in the freezer.

Verdict

For a couple who want to go adventuring in a yacht they can entirely rely upon and which will deliver them across oceans safely and not exhausted, you couldn’t find a better boat. Read review#rEbbrVKO4m7GRY2e.99more at Reviews Archive - Yachting Monthly

I've watched Delos for a few years and a few things jumped out over time;

• The comfort and ease that they've gone through some pretty rough conditions.
• The amount of fixing broken things they have to do (remarkably little considering they've done +70k miles over 10 years)
• The amount of space onboard
• How easy it's handled shorthanded for a 54ft boat.
• How big their fuel tanks are - a year between filling up - quite something for a boat that's always on the move.
• How relaxed and refreshed they seem at the end of some seriously long passages.

An Amel is currently top of my list of boats for when we go off on a big/live aboard cruise.

 

[geem]

Here is an extract from a Yachting Monthly review :

Would she suit you and your crew?

The Amel philososphy has produced a distinctive range of yachts that are all remarkably similar in appearance. Historically, Amel offered very short options lists as everything had been thought through on the drawing board and included in the standard spec.

If you like tweaking and getting an extra few degrees on the wind, the Santorin 46 simply doesn't offer enough bits of string to pull. However, if you love sailing but have had enough of being ‘jet- washed' in an open cockpit, Amels are well worth considering. Like driving an automatic car, you will quickly get used to not having to work on the foredeck, instead letting the boat do it for you.

Amel's closest competitor is probably Oyster. Amel owners would assert that their boat is better suited to shorthanded sailing, and at roughly half the price (used), the French boat represents remarkable value, although still not cheap. Should you find the spare change to buy one, you'll soon be leaving the miles churning in your wake, and ice for the cocktails will already be in the freezer.

Verdict

For a couple who want to go adventuring in a yacht they can entirely rely upon and which will deliver them across oceans safely and not exhausted, you couldn’t find a better boat. Read review#rEbbrVKO4m7GRY2e.99more at Reviews Archive - Yachting Monthly

I know the boats well enough. Been on them and sailed in company with one. Our van de Stadt is only 44ft but we left it for dead. I understand the appeal of them but they aren't for me. They have funny little cockpit and a wheel on the bulkhead more like a powerboat. They remind me of an old Citroen ?

 

[dunedin]

Here is an extract from a Yachting Monthly review :

Would she suit you and your crew?

The Amel philososphy has produced a distinctive range of yachts that are all remarkably similar in appearance. Historically, Amel offered very short options lists as everything had been thought through on the drawing board and included in the standard spec.

If you like tweaking and getting an extra few degrees on the wind, the Santorin 46 simply doesn't offer enough bits of string to pull. However, if you love sailing but have had enough of being ‘jet- washed' in an open cockpit, Amels are well worth considering. Like driving an automatic car, you will quickly get used to not having to work on the foredeck, instead letting the boat do it for you.

Amel's closest competitor is probably Oyster. Amel owners would assert that their boat is better suited to shorthanded sailing, and at roughly half the price (used), the French boat represents remarkable value, although still not cheap. Should you find the spare change to buy one, you'll soon be leaving the miles churning in your wake, and ice for the cocktails will already be in the freezer.

Verdict

For a couple who want to go adventuring in a yacht they can entirely rely upon and which will deliver them across oceans safely and not exhausted, you couldn’t find a better boat. Read review#rEbbrVKO4m7GRY2e.99more at Reviews Archive - Yachting Monthly

Exactly what other modern yachts do you need to “work on the foredeck”? Certainly not an Xc45 or any of the other yachts suggested in this thread. And is there any single objective way in which an Amel is easier to sail short handead compared to an Oyster? Pretty much nonsense comments In the article quoted.
And the OP said specifically not planning to do more ocean crossings.

Though I would agree with the other poster’s statement about Amels being rather sedate in coastal sailing - having left a few for dead, when they had 2-3m length advantag. And a steering position offset to one side with poor visibility is hardly the best way to enjoy fun sailing in the Med, and that alone would be enough to be a deal breaker for me.

 

[Nom de plume]

Time to eliminate a few for the sake of clarity of purpose. No criticism of any make implied, every boat mentioned in this thread is 'up there' it's just that some don't do it for us personally.
Malo - great boats, one of my all time favourites but eliminated because, as said, we want at least one (preferably two) side access beds with decent mattresses - the Malo's that we have seen are all fitted with 'boat bunks' with 'Boat mattresses' (fine for sea berths) but not a 'Bed'. Unless someone knows different.........
XC 43/45 - Again a great boat but described by the maker as a 'performance cruiser' and for us the line is a tad to much towards the 'performance' end - if we were younger......
Amels - Sigh.... I have studied the reports on these great live-aboards for decades and I should love them. But I don't. Cannot really explain why as I usually prefer functional over the aesthetic but Amels are a step too far for me - Perhaps just a little too 'French'. Surprising because I love old Renaults, Peugeots and Citroens - but not Amels.

I'm still hovering around the Moody variants and the Hylas - but if Jonic is still reading I would love to hear his further thoughts on the Island Packet versus his Moody 46?
Still reading up on some of the others.

 

[Sybarite]

I know the boats well enough. Been on them and sailed in company with one. Our van de Stadt is only 44ft but we left it for dead. I understand the appeal of them but they aren't for me. They have funny little cockpit and a wheel on the bulkhead more like a powerboat. They remind me of an old Citroen ?

How often do you handsteer a boat on passage?

Here is an extract from a Vlog by a couple who have done the Atlantic circuit on a Sharki (11m95). In reference to boat speed they mention two things. In a cruise in company with a Sun Legende they say that the boat (Sun L.) is perhaps 10% faster but the crew arrive 50-60% more tired.

They also left St Martin for the Azores at the same time as a J oat 13m. When the wind was up the J 13 gallopped away at 10knots but when the wind got higher and it was forced to reef and use a flat trysail, it would surf down the waves to be brought to a sudden halt in the trough.. The result was a very tiring motion and the Sharki arrived first at the Azores because it continued to plod on at a comfortable 6 knts.

http://dougle.heoblog.com/index.php?post/2012/09/23/Et-si-c-était-à-refaire...

Lots of practical information in the Vlog for those who understand French.

 

[Chae_73]

c-yachts appear to have a proper bed with proper mattress in the aft cabin. I've never been on one, but they look to have a lot to like:

C-Yacht 12.50 Used Boat for Sale 2007 | TheYachtMarket

 

[jonic]

I'm still hovering around the Moody variants and the Hylas - but if Jonic is still reading I would love to hear his further thoughts on the Island Packet versus his Moody 46?
Still reading up on some of the others.

I loved the IP 45 but for us it came down to number of cabins. The children have become teenagers and also want to bring friends, so the Moody gives us 4 cabins and lots of space. We actually bought this one (I have now sold her three times in her lifetime so knew her well). She has since had a new engine, bow thruster, windlass and electronics. The IP has a better quality interior IMHO.

 

[Nom de plume]

Makes sense, I had a feeling that might be the reason.
I think that we might be heading in a similar direction

 

[Poecheng]

Amels - Sigh.... I have studied the reports on these great live-aboards for decades and I should love them. But I don't. Cannot really explain why as I usually prefer functional over the aesthetic but Amels are a step too far for me - Perhaps just a little too 'French'. Surprising because I love old Renaults, Peugeots and Citroens - but not Amels.

Thanks for starting a great thread.
I know what you mean about the Amels but I would encourage you to have a look at one if you haven't before now. To my eyes, they look old fashioned even for their time. We went to the factory a couple of years ago and at the time they had boats on brokerage in the marina and we were really impressed by them; it all makes sense in the flesh. If the size and price of a SM2000 or, even better, a 54 don't put you off then they are worth a look even if only to confirm they are (still) not for you. Am following the thread and not knowledgeable enough to say the Amel is better than others etc but I suspect it is harder to like without seeing it.

 

[Tranona]

I see from your original post you might consider a cheaper production boat. In that case the Bavaria Ocean 40 or 44 are arguably better than the Beneteaus you suggest. However you might find the later Vision 44 of 2007-10 fits your brief. Forecabin with side access double berth, en suite toilet, 2 armchairs in saloon and 2 aft double cabins and second loo. These are not to be confused with the standard Cruiser range. Both are heavier displacement and bogger rigs plus better finish and equipment all round. The aft cockpit Vision with its good cockpit, bathing platform, twin wheels and light and airy raised saloon is a good Med/warm weather boat. Jeanneau have similar style boats from the same late 90s to 2010 period.

 

[rotrax]

Thanks for starting a great thread.
I know what you mean about the Amels but I would encourage you to have a look at one if you haven't before now. To my eyes, they look old fashioned even for their time. We went to the factory a couple of years ago and at the time they had boats on brokerage in the marina and we were really impressed by them; it all makes sense in the flesh. If the size and price of a SM2000 or, even better, a 54 don't put you off then they are worth a look even if only to confirm they are (still) not for you. Am following the thread and not knowledgeable enough to say the Amel is better than others etc but I suspect it is harder to like without seeing it.

Agree with everything you say.

However, while in Ireland with our SP Cruiser a French couple with a nice but older Amel came aboard for drinks.

The next day the guy informed me his wife was on a crusade for a more modern and up to date boat.........................................

 

[geem]

How often do you handsteer a boat on passage?

Here is an extract from a Vlog by a couple who have done the Atlantic circuit on a Sharki (11m95). In reference to boat speed they mention two things. In a cruise in company with a Sun Legende they say that the boat (Sun L.) is perhaps 10% faster but the crew arrive 50-60% more tired.

They also left St Martin for the Azores at the same time as a J oat 13m. When the wind was up the J 13 gallopped away at 10knots but when the wind got higher and it was forced to reef and use a flat trysail, it would surf down the waves to be brought to a sudden halt in the trough.. The result was a very tiring motion and the Sharki arrived first at the Azores because it continued to plod on at a comfortable 6 knts.

http://dougle.heoblog.com/index.php?post/2012/09/23/Et-si-c-était-à-refaire...

Lots of practical information in the Vlog for those who understand French.

How often do you handsteer a boat on passage?

Here is an extract from a Vlog by a couple who have done the Atlantic circuit on a Sharki (11m95). In reference to boat speed they mention two things. In a cruise in company with a Sun Legende they say that the boat (Sun L.) is perhaps 10% faster but the crew arrive 50-60% more tired.

They also left St Martin for the Azores at the same time as a J oat 13m. When the wind was up the J 13 gallopped away at 10knots but when the wind got higher and it was forced to reef and use a flat trysail, it would surf down the waves to be brought to a sudden halt in the trough.. The result was a very tiring motion and the Sharki arrived first at the Azores because it continued to plod on at a comfortable 6 knts.

http://dougle.heoblog.com/index.php?post/2012/09/23/Et-si-c-était-à-refaire...

Lots of practical information in the Vlog for those who understand French.

Thats great but we are shorter than the Amel and four ton heavier. We make the Amel seem like the J. Any heavy cruising boat will be comfortable compared to a J or for that matter an AWB. We passed a Ben 50 crossing the Atlantic last year. We weren’t racing. Just me and the Mrs. A heavy 44ft ketch compared to a modern light 50 ft boat. Its easy to go fast when its comfy