Retired and fit - looking for a boat. Advice?

[Daydream believer]

Unfortunately you have just missed my Westerly Ocean 33, which sold in less than a day and might well have been of interest.

I would take Concerto up on his offer, the Fulmar is a really fine boat if you can find one in good condition, not to say that some of the other suggestions are not fine boats too.

The one tip I would give you about any secondhand Westerly is to have a very close look at the headlining, which is famous for drooping after more than ten years or so. You can replace this yourself and get kits, but it's a hell of a job, and to get it done professionally is not cheap.

You can get a bilge keel Fulmar.

Bilge keel Fulmar just sold at our club for £10500, but the osmosis spreads a foot above the waterline
On owner of a Centaur claims that he has finally sorted his wobbly bilge keels that he could hear clanking as the boat rolled on the mooring
But it is Ok because they are Westerlys

 

[Tranona]

The concept of a boat aboard which nothing needs fixing is alien to me. The boat that I have now is the first boat I have ever owned that is younger than me. What do people do all day if they have nothing to repair/fix/tinker with?

I strongly suspect, thinking of a couple of friends who have gone from owning rather “trad” boats to boats with “his” and “hers” wheels, etc., that the owner doesn’t spend any less; he or she just fritters more of it on “nice to have” presents for the boat.

You are right in a way about the second observation, although from my recent experience if the boat is equipped and set up properly you run out of meaningful things to do.

Until you have experienced modern boats you may think it is alien to have a boat that does not need serious ongoing fixing. Having had 2 of them, my experience is that a mainly trouble free boat is a real possibility. They are designed and built for easy day to day maintenance as in the mass market most are made with charter operators in mind so are relatively simple and easy to fix. Looking through my 8 years records of my first boat the things that needed fixing were domestic electrical, water systems, loos reflecting 20+ weeks a year of charter guests, often 6 on board at a time. Nothing about steering, rigging, sails or basic structure. In private use most of these domestic bits do far better. My current boat is now 5 seasons old and virtually nothing has gone wrong. Just a failed exhaust silencer, couple of Garmin nav problems and the battery on the wind unit failed tail end of last year.

Before I bought this new boat I looked at the sort of boat the OP might consider early 2000s boats and most I saw needed very little work, and then usually upgrades such as adding an electric windlass or upgrading electronics rather than repairs or replacements.

Frustrating thing now is that until things open up there are so few boats to look at.

 

[Jokani]

Why on Earth would someone with a £50k budget be looking at Centaurs or Fulmars ? Absolutely nuts.

If you have a £15-£20K budget, sure, a Fulmar might be a good choice, but £50K opens up a ton of late 90's early 2000s AWBs.

If you can actually find anything for sale at the moment.

My Centaur will be on the market as soon as lockdown ends, anyone with a £50k budget is welcome to PM prior to that, I'm sure I can shave a bit off to get within budget ;-)

 

[Kukri]

Some people “don’t notice” that, say, a winch is getting hard to turn. Others do. So the level of maintenance may differ between otherwise similar boats.

But I think we may have wandered away from the point.

 

[Kukri]

But surely, sailing a boat on which one can have complete confidence, on which all the gadgets work perfectly, which can be handled easily because every sheet, halyard & rope runs perfectly with minimal friction.

Like this one. Dry, white painted, bilges, certainly no deck leaks, every gadget worked perfectly and there was less friction in the running gear, (all pre-War roller bearing blocks) than on any sub twenty year old boat that I have sailed on.

But I won’t say that no work was involved in getting her and keeping her that way?

 

[Captain Crisp]

You don't really know what rocks your boat, till you have one. I bought my 53 yr old Twister, because, once I'd seen her, I couldn't get her out of my head... And she was extremely cheap!
Much as I love sailing her, I've discovered that, weirdly, I also love spending hours squeezed into her dark recesses fixing various issues... Each issue is a new challenge, a new opportunity for deep mental immersion, total focus, new toys to purchase, and eventual triumph! I've sailed her since day 1, so she's not a 'project' in that sense. Too small for the OP, but if you enjoy a dinghy, you might miss the buzz on some of the bigger AWBs... Just saying...

 

[neptis]

My Centaur will be on the market as soon as lockdown ends, anyone with a £50k budget is welcome to PM prior to that, I'm sure I can shave a bit off to get within budget ;-)

Erm.. I’ll look forward to that.

 

[Daydream believer]

View attachment 110658

Like this one. Dry, white painted, bilges, certainly no deck leaks, every gadget worked perfectly and there was less friction in the running gear, (all pre-War roller bearing blocks) than on any sub twenty year old boat that I have sailed on.

But I won’t say that no work was involved in getting her and keeping her that way?

One is going to spend ages maintaining it, instead of sailing
But to each his own.

 

[neptis]

You don't really know what rocks your boat, till you have one. I bought my 53 yr old Twister, because, once I'd seen her, I couldn't get her out of my head... And she was extremely cheap!
Much as I love sailing her, I've discovered that, weirdly, I also love spending hours squeezed into her dark recesses fixing various issues... Each issue is a new challenge, a new opportunity for deep mental immersion, total focus, new toys to purchase, and eventual triumph! I've sailed her since day 1, so she's not a 'project' in that sense. Too small for the OP, but if you enjoy a dinghy, you might miss the buzz on some of the bigger AWBs... Just saying...

It does rather sound like ‘everyone needs a shed’ which I understand.

 

[Captain Crisp]

It does rather sound like ‘everyone needs a shed’ which I understand.

A Kim Holman shed that is!

 

[Laminar Flow]

For £50K you should be looking at a 2005 -2008 Beneteau, jeneau, bavaria, hanse in the 31-35 ft range. With little to worry about a big spend for a couple of years or so. Excellent performance. Fin keel. As for taking to the ground, I have been round UK twice & never once found a fin a disadvantage. In fact i found it an advantage when I had to make progress upwind. 6 kts + average speed is normal which is far better than 5nts when one has a 100 + mile leg to cover, or just a tidal gate to catch
As for taking to the ground- Once you have been up one muddy creek you have been up them all & there are plenty you can find with enough water for a couple of nights at anchor . I sail on the east coast & apart from having to wait to get onto the creek to my marina now & then I have never found it a problem. Shallow draft needed for across sand banks is a myth because most sailors end up with a metre below the keel anyway.
31ft on a modern AWB is so much more comfortable than some of the older designs. My 31 ft boat has a decent heads, shower fridge, berths, cooker, work space water storage, engine range etc & the wife & I can spend weeks away perfectly comfortably. It is also great for single handing. 35 ft would be even better. but probably much harder to find in the current climate.
That being said, if you fancied a sail back from Italy & the VAT hassle this looks really good
1985 Grand Soleil 35, Campania Italy - boats.com

I generally stay out of these discussions because boat choice is such an personal matter.

On older boats: Well, I like fixing things, that doesn't frighten me a bit and I can do most everything myself. Like Kukri, I do wonder what other people do with their time. Decent heads, galleys, berths, headroom, space, water storage, engine range, refridegeration are not the sole prerogative of current designs, our 31.5' tub (see avatar) has all that, plus a roof over our heads and we seem to manage 6kts average under sail as well on passage; sometimes even better. My wife and I live aboard and cruise 3-4 months every year. - Unlike some supposedly better modern designs, our little ship is directionally stable and will track downwind in 30kts like on rails, without the slightest inclination to broach and in perfect control. Performance, perhaps, has it's price as well. True, we are not as good to weather as some, which brings me to my next point: shallow draft.

I hope I'll never grow tired of exploring back waters. We love going up the rivers in Brittany, the canals in Holland and the Islands of the Southern Baltic; there are many places where deep draft simply cannot go. You do not need bilge keels either to take the ground; legs work for us. If you need a metre below your keel, don't go to Holland or the Waddenzee and stay out of rivers. Crossing a sea is fine, its the edges that are the interesting part.

I wish the OP all the luck finding his own perfect boat.

 

[ashtead]

Yes the OP can be the only judge as to whether he prefers say a newer Hanse with self tacking headsail and newer engine and all mod cons or the charm of an ancient Centaur or say Hallberg and the fettling activity which they demand.

 

[Kukri]

Culture war averted?

 

[Babylon]

You don't really know what rocks your boat, till you have one. I bought my 53 yr old Twister, because, once I'd seen her, I couldn't get her out of my head... And she was extremely cheap!

Much as I love sailing her, I've discovered that, weirdly, I also love spending hours squeezed into her dark recesses fixing various issues... Each issue is a new challenge, a new opportunity for deep mental immersion, total focus, new toys to purchase, and eventual triumph! I've sailed her since day 1, so she's not a 'project' in that sense.

This could have been written by me about my now 39yr old Vancouver which I've had since she was 25yrs old. I've also sailed her from day one, while also hugely having enjoyed doing a terrific amount of renovations and upgrades over the years. But that's me - I like making things and fixing things and thinking through effective and elegant solutions.

However, if I ever sell her to buy a slightly bigger (older trad) boat, then I won't want to get involved in the same amount of work again! I'd want to buy something that someone else has done a proper job on - at least most of it!

 

[Ravi]

If you are going to singlehand - (especially if you are sailing in your late 50s and beyond ) - the specific make and the model of the boat are less important than the right setup.

Your £50K budget should prioritise all the single hander aids like self-tailing winches, electric windlass, mast climbing system (e.g. mast steps or ascent gear), reliable/manageable reefing sail system from the cockpit, etc. A reliable self-steering system is a must. If you are considering buying a boat that is missing such single-hander apparatus, consider the cost and practicality of fitting it. Retro-fitting things like self-tailing winches is probably straightforward but things like windlasses and bowrollers are not practical on all bopat designs.

Q. Why are you looking at boats in the 27-29 foot range? Solo manoeuvring something in the 30-34+ range is perfectly manageable in a marina and far more better out at sea. Perhaps, most importantly, a bigger boat is much more comfortable to sit out days of rain and storms in a cold wet anchorage.

Edit: More better! Ooops.

 

[Kukri]

If you are going to singlehand - (especially if you are sailing in your late 50s and beyond ) - the specific make and the model of the boat are less important than the right setup.

Your £50K budget should prioritise all the single hander aids like self-tailing winches, electric windlass, mast climbing system (e.g. mast steps or ascent gear), reliable/manageable reefing sail system from the cockpit, etc. A reliable self-steering system is a must. If you are considering buying a boat that is missing such single-hander apparatus, consider the cost and practicality of fitting it. Retro-fitting things like self-tailing winches is probably straightforward but things like windlasses and bowrollers are not practical on all bopat designs.

Q. Why are you looking at boats in the 27-29 foot range? Solo manoeuvring something in the 30-34+ range is perfectly manageable in a marina and far more better out at sea. Perhaps, most importantly, a bigger boat is much more comfortable to sit out days of rain and storms in a cold wet anchorage.

Excellent advice. I’d go further and say that any boat used for cruising away from your home waters should be set up for single handing even if you never plan to sail her single handed, because you may have to do so.

So... self tailers, but the primaries must be reachable from the wheel. Often, they are not. You need a “plumbed in”, under deck, autopilot and you need the battery capacity and the charging capacity to run it. You have just spent £10K... More, if you go for electric rewind primaries. This is far more important than having the halyards and reefing lines led aft. You need an electric windlass and an anchor and chain that self stow reliably, time after time. Almost no production boats have this. There goes another £5-7K.

You need a furler, obviously, and she will have one, but how good is it? How good are the mainsail hoisting, reefing and furling systems, in terms of operating reliably, time after time, with very little friction?

Can you pilot the boat into a strange anchorage? Is there a plotter in the cockpit that won’t get swiped by the main sheet in a crash gybe? How easy is it to set heavy weather sails? Can you deal with the VHF from the helm?

And don’t forget the midships cleats.?

This is not for long distance cruising, this is for coastal cruising away from the Solent, the East coast or the West Country.

 

[neptis]

Yes the OP can be the only judge as to whether he prefers say a newer Hanse with self tacking headsail and newer engine and all mod cons or the charm of an ancient Centaur or say Hallberg and the fettling activity which they demand.

Yep! But what great sounding board. I’ve got a bit of time to think. Spend the summer looking at a long list, shortlist and purchase in the autumn. Certainly like the sound of a number of the suggestions.

If you are going to singlehand - (especially if you are sailing in your late 50s and beyond ) - the specific make and the model of the boat are less important than the right setup.

Your £50K budget should prioritise all the single hander aids like self-tailing winches, electric windlass, mast climbing system (e.g. mast steps or ascent gear), reliable/manageable reefing sail system from the cockpit, etc. A reliable self-steering system is a must. If you are considering buying a boat that is missing such single-hander apparatus, consider the cost and practicality of fitting it. Retro-fitting things like self-tailing winches is probably straightforward but things like windlasses and bowrollers are not practical on all bopat designs.

Q. Why are you looking at boats in the 27-29 foot range? Solo manoeuvring something in the 30-34+ range is perfectly manageable in a marina and far more better out at sea. Perhaps, most importantly, a bigger boat is much more comfortable to sit out days of rain and storms in a cold wet anchorage.

Edit: More better! Ooops.

That’s useful. I have always thought a smaller boat would be less of a handful short-handed and see some virtue in simplicity. My experience with powered windlasses is probably not great having had one with a mechanical failure.

 

[PaulRainbow]

If you are going to singlehand - (especially if you are sailing in your late 50s and beyond ) - the specific make and the model of the boat are less important than the right setup.

Your £50K budget should prioritise all the single hander aids like self-tailing winches, electric windlass, mast climbing system (e.g. mast steps or ascent gear), reliable/manageable reefing sail system from the cockpit, etc. A reliable self-steering system is a must. If you are considering buying a boat that is missing such single-hander apparatus, consider the cost and practicality of fitting it. Retro-fitting things like self-tailing winches is probably straightforward but things like windlasses and bowrollers are not practical on all bopat designs.

Q. Why are you looking at boats in the 27-29 foot range? Solo manoeuvring something in the 30-34+ range is perfectly manageable in a marina and far more better out at sea. Perhaps, most importantly, a bigger boat is much more comfortable to sit out days of rain and storms in a cold wet anchorage.

Edit: More better! Ooops.

Top advice. As someone who often sails a mid 30's footer single handed i recognise all of that. The comments about the boat size is especially good, who wants to be making .5 knots in a 26 footer, in some horrible weather, getting tossed around like a cork, when you can be doing 5 knots in a 33 footer in a bit more comfort. Not only that, the bigger boats tend to come equipped with more of those things in your list. Five years ago i bought a 35 year old Westerly, she came with quality furling headsail, self tailing winches, midships cleats, electric windlass, autopilot etc. She was also better equipped below decks than many small boats. fridge, heating, hot/cold water, cooker with oven, etc and lots of room.

 

[Daydream believer]

Shallow draught - tick
Bilge keels - tick
Inside steering - tick

Moody 33 Eclipse

You forgot to add--- Being stuck underneath, between 2 bilge keels trying to get the rust off the keels sand the hull between the keels & apply antifoul whilst laying on your back.
At our sailing club we recognise each fellow cruiser member by their spindly legs
Conversations are done by semaphore of the angle of the feet, punctuated by grunts from within the keels

 

[wombat88]

Go smaller, cheaper, newer, handier.

Hunter Pilot 27