Request for advice on dispute with RYA school

[Sailinglady]

Hello,

I am hoping you are able to give me some guidance on an issue that has developed between an RYA certified school and myself. Although the RYA certification may be primarily focussed in training standards I had taken it as some assurance the school would to adhere to fair trading standards also.

I booked and paid in full for a practical training course for myself and my partner with the school but unfortunately had to cancel. The cancellation was made with over one months notice and the terms and conditions of the school state that cancellations made over one month in advance will receive a full refund.

The proprietor of the school has now told me that although I am entitled to a full refund according to his T&Cs he wants to charge me an administration fee of £80 for "my time which you have wasted". He has refused to return my money until I agree to him deducting it from my refund. There is no mention of an administration fee in their T&Cs and it was not notified to me in any way prior.

I do appreciate that some schools may be small businesses struggling with their finances but this seems to me unacceptable and probably illegal.

I am not sure of my rights; is anybody able to offer any advice?

Many thanks.

 

[Iliade]

How did you pay?

If you paid by credit card or online then you have recourse to a variety of legal options, including asking the bank to refund the money under the credit card arrangements.

 

[Rigger Mortice]

If the T&C's said a full refund is due then a full refund is due. He can't add an admin charge after the event. He may well be pi$$ed off at a double cancellation but that is part of being in business.

If the Credit Card route doesn't work then you may have to resort to Small Claims Court.

 

[Frankie-H]

Hi & Welcome to the Forum.

Assuming that you have documentary proof of all this, he has not got a leg to stand on. Give him 7 days to pay and tell him that you will take the advice of the RYA. This will probably do the trick as they take a very dim view of this sort of thing.

If this still dosn't work see SAPurdie above. Good luck.

 

[Babylon]

The cancellation was made with over one months notice and the terms and conditions of the school state that cancellations made over one month in advance will receive a full refund.

I am entitled to a full refund according to his T&CS

he wants to charge me an administration fee of £80 for "my time which you have wasted".

He has refused to return my money until I agree to him deducting it from my refund.

There is no mention of an administration fee in their T&Cs and it was not notified to me in any way prior.

I do appreciate that some schools may be small businesses struggling with their finances but this seems to me unacceptable and probably illegal.

Its black and white. Contractually the school is obliged to give you your money back. No reason needs to be given by you why you needed to cancel. And no proprietor's time is ever wasted: if you own a business your time is completely free to run it - come what may.

So what that times are tough?! They're tough for YOU too!

He's trying it on, plain and simple. £80 is the sort of figure that he reckons most people would cave in over, rather than go to the hassle of a small claims action.

I reckon you're a nice person. Yes? I also reckon that he knows that too, which is why he's giving you the runaround!

Do one or more of the following:

1. Action an online Small Claims Court claim (its really quite easy, and someone will be along in a minute with a link to the correct website).

2. Speak to your bank or credit card company.

3. Contact the RYA legal department - ask them what is normal. (If you're a member of the RYA, then so much the better.)

4. Tell EVERYONE who the school is. [LATER EDIT THANKS TO PARSIFAL'S ADVICE BELOW: No, don't tell everyone now. Write a firm letter to the school, stating that he needs to abide by the terms and conditions of his contract and refund you immediately in full, else you will recover the money due and your further costs through the small claims court and inform the RYA of your experience with them. If he gives you any more grief, and/or you have to go to the hassle of extracting the money through other routes, then you're welcome to share the school's identity with us.]

I hope this helps.



PS - Welcome to the forum.

 

[JimC]

4. Tell EVERYONE who the school is.

I think you should

 

[Sans Bateau]

Welcome to the forum, and I'm sorry your first post has to be of such an annoying issue.

You have a contract with the school. I assume you can prove that you cancelled in the time frame which you described. I suggest that you write to the principal of the school pointing out that the T&C's have been adhered too and that this forms part of the contact you have with them. Tell him that you wish to see the issue resolved in an amicable way, by him returning your full deposit. However if he does not do so, you will have no choice but to seek legal advice, this may result in the claim being put into the SCC, if this happens then he may incur further costs and adverse credit history.

Make sure all letters are sent registered. avoid email.

 

[Tranona]

If you are thinking of going the small claims route suggest you read up about it first. Google Small Claims and you will get the government website which will talk you through the process. It is very straightforward and if you give him the opportunity to settle following the guidance you will find making the claim simple. It does cost (about £35) but he will have to pay that anyway when he settles.

Expect you will find just the threat if worded so he knows you are serious will be enough. Don't whatever you do ask a solicitor to do it for you - he can't do anything that you can't do and its not worth the hassle.

 

[Hugh Foulis]

Why do people who think they are businessmen do this sort of thing? He produced the Ts & Cs and now wants to change them post hoc.
If it had been me I would have been saying "of course you can have your money back, its part of our trading philosophy; just as soon as you are ready to make a new booking we would love to hear from you."

So if the OP does not get all of it back (no way this can happen by the way, if you are reading this) then there is one school they will not be going to for any further tuition.
If you do go the small claims court route, its easy, quick and would cost him so much more to defend than to cave in so dont let him get away with it.

We do need to know who it is by the way so that no one else gets such hassle

HF

 

[BlueSkyNick]

The advice you have been given seems sound, however it is free and anonymous on this forum.

Citizens Advice Bureau may be worth a call.

 

[little_roundtop]

Whilst I agree with all the above and don't condone the school "making up the rules as they go along" think about it from the sailing school's point of view.

There are only usually five or six people on a school boat at a time. Good schools try to vary the level of skills and courses being followed so that Coastal Skipper or Yachtmaster students have Day Skipper and Competent Crew students as crew to give them a better feel of what it's like to manage crew. The school may have spent some time and effort getting the "balance" of this boat right and your cancellation has possibly meant that they now have to move students around between other boats to maintain the right balance. Remember this isn't a holiday, there's more going on behind the scenes than simply booking a berth on a boat.

Life is all about give and take, perhaps if you were a bit less confrontational you might find out why he wants to charge you £80 and you might begin to appreciate things from his point of view too. With a bit of cooperation on your part you might even find ways to avoid that charge altogether.

The world would be a much better pace if instead of immediately demanding our rights we thought a bit more about our responsibilities.

And no, I'm not associated with any RYA school. Actually I'm on Crete. Though I used to be involved in vocational training (not sailing) so I understand what might be happening "on the other side".

Tony C.

 

[Talulah]

There are only usually five or six people on a school boat at a time. Good schools try to vary the level of skills and courses being followed so that Coastal Skipper or Yachtmaster students have Day Skipper and Competent Crew students as crew to give them a better feel of what it's like to manage crew.

Not quite. I avoid mixing Day Skipper students with Coastal/Offshore. You can't cover both sylabus in a week or one or the other suffers. No problem having Comp crew students though.

I hope the OP gets satisfaction. The T&C's are for the protection of both sides. Black and White. She should get a full refund. Maybe the School will modify their T&C's for future bookings to introduce an Admin charge but it can't be done retrospectively.

 

[Poignard]

Babylon

I agree with everything you say except for item 4.

There is no point in that and it could turn something that could probably be easily settled with a firm but courteous letter into a bitter feud from which no one will benefit. When negotiating it's always best to leave the other party a way out without 'losing face'.

Best to get the money back (if it has been paid already) and then tell us the name of the company!

 

[Babylon]

Babylon

I agree with everything you say except for item 4.

There is no point in that and it could turn something that could probably be easily settled with a firm but courteous letter into a bitter feud from which no one will benefit. When negotiating it's always best to leave the other party a way out without 'losing face'.

Best to get the money back (if it has been paid already) and then tell us the name of the company!

Thanks for pointing this out. I agree, and I hereby withdraw my 4th item. I'm not normally one to push for 'naming-and-shaming' but I just got the sense that this proprietor was attempting to taking advantage of a decent person who's abided by the T&C's of the contract (and who's no doubt already deeply disappointed that she's had to cancel).

Little_Roundtop,

I also provide adult training courses, albeit for much longer durations, where the timing and mix of students of of different abilities is a constant challenge. I make it clear in advance that if someone pulls out before or during a course for reasons beyond my control, they won't in normal circumstances get back anything they've already paid (although I tend to be, at my own discretion, overly generous in giving partial refunds).

For this reason I don't take deposits - which are apparently refundable in law - and so all payments are termed 'stage payments' which aren't.

If someone withdraws from a course, I cannot usually fill their space at short notice, so I am the loser. Hence my T&Cs.

A sailing school proprietor can always fill a boat at short notice - but it depends on his karma. This guy isn't exactly surrounded by a lot of positive energy!

 

[Tranona]

Whilst I agree with all the above and don't condone the school "making up the rules as they go along" think about it from the sailing school's point of view.

There are only usually five or six people on a school boat at a time. Good schools try to vary the level of skills and courses being followed so that Coastal Skipper or Yachtmaster students have Day Skipper and Competent Crew students as crew to give them a better feel of what it's like to manage crew. The school may have spent some time and effort getting the "balance" of this boat right and your cancellation has possibly meant that they now have to move students around between other boats to maintain the right balance. Remember this isn't a holiday, there's more going on behind the scenes than simply booking a berth on a boat.

Life is all about give and take, perhaps if you were a bit less confrontational you might find out why he wants to charge you £80 and you might begin to appreciate things from his point of view too. With a bit of cooperation on your part you might even find ways to avoid that charge altogether.

The world would be a much better pace if instead of immediately demanding our rights we thought a bit more about our responsibilities.

And no, I'm not associated with any RYA school. Actually I'm on Crete. Though I used to be involved in vocational training (not sailing) so I understand what might be happening "on the other side".

Tony C.

The issue is not about whether there should be a cancellation charge - perhaps there should. However the booking was taken on the basis that there was no cancellation charge. The OP has fulfilled his/her obligation within the timespan so the school has no option but to stand by its T&Cs. Cannot understand why the proprietor is taking this position - setting the T&C was his choice, he has to live with it.

 

[Steve Clayton]

If no one has mentioned it yet: OP needs to take an extract/screen print of the T&C's on the website. Only takes a couple of mins to add a cancellation clause; and then to track the change can be somewhat difficult.

If OP not sure how to do this then send me a private message with the web-site and I'll do it.

 

[Poignard]

Things must be pretty desperate for that sailing school proprietor if he is risking his reputation for the sake of £80.

Although, on the facts given, he seems to be in the wrong, I can't help feeling a bit sorry for him. Maybe financial worries are clouding his judgment.

 

[Angele]

I'm not normally one to push for 'naming-and-shaming'

Evidence from today is that not 'naming and shaming' is the only way to ensure your thread doesn't get pulled.

 

[Malish]

Evidence from today is that not 'naming and shaming' is the only way to ensure your thread doesn't get pulled.

amazed that this one has not been pulled already on the whiff that there is the remotest possibility that someone might be named and shamed

 

[GrahamM376]

Life is all about give and take, perhaps if you were a bit less confrontational you might find out why he wants to charge you £80 and you might begin to appreciate things from his point of view too. With a bit of cooperation on your part you might even find ways to avoid that charge altogether.

The world would be a much better pace if instead of immediately demanding our rights we thought a bit more about our responsibilities.

Sorrry, but I totally disagree. Terms and conditions of booking are usually laid down at the "time of order/contract". If there is an administration fee to be deducted in the event of cancellation then it should be in the terms and conditions. Provided you are not in breach of contract, he should repay whatever amount is due.

My first stop would be Trading Standards, a phone call from them often works wonders. If he doesn't budge the the RYA may be able to persuade him.