Replacing an older battery charger

[Daydream believer]

look for EXPERT mode, there you set the two voltages in 2decimal point accuracy.
how old are these batteries now?

batteries - 3 months
But now you have mentioned "expert" mode I have downloaded the app on my computer rather than my IPAD. That has allowed me to see the demo mode easier & I now have found the settings & advanced tab. So thanks for the prompt.
I still think it is a faff but I will play with it. I doubt that I will try to mess about with the voltages because I am not sure that I will get them right. I would have to refer to the battery spec first & then transfer the info so it could end up in tears. How I hate electrics.

 

[Refueler]

I know this touches on another matter ..... but battery chargers need to be looked at as to whether Smart or simple charger.

I went through this - watching Smart Chargers fail to maintain batterys on board. Having to revert to an old style non smart charger.

Let me explain : I had a charge control splitter. This monitored both batterys and directed charge where needed .. cut of charge to which ever battery was full. The smart charger as soon as controller stopped charge to both batterys - the charger would not resume charging when a battery needed top-up. The solution was to obtain a plain non smart charger. This meant that charger was sitting there always ready to charge once controller reconnected any battery.

That system solved my on-board charge regime for years ... many years later - the controller failed. A new solution was needed.

That led me to the Maintainers I linked to earlier.

I did consider all sorts of battery control systems but being a 'cheapskate' - I buy batterys from Scrapyards ... use common simple chargers .... use 1 - both - 2 - off switch ..... I looked for a simple clip on / plug in solution ....

Now I have two of the maintainers mounted outside the battery box where I can see the indicator LED's ... red charging .. green battery full. One for each battery. They switch on / off as needed. I also have a 1 - OFF - 2 battery voltmeter display ... since fitting these - I have noticed less water top-ups to batterys ... full charged batterys all time ... cost less than 20 quid. A plug and play budget solution. Does away with need for any larger / other charger., except as a backup if needed in marina to fast charge ...

 

[Momac]

I often wonder why a charger is left on if there is nothing left on to draw current from the battery. A good battery maintains a charge for a long time before it needs a boost.

The Victron Bluesmart monitors the batteries and if no action after a week gives the batteries boost charge .
But to be honest I have always left the boat with shore power connected and the battery charger on even when the previous charger was fitted .

 

[vas]

batteries - 3 months
But now you have mentioned "expert" mode I have downloaded the app on my computer rather than my IPAD. That has allowed me to see the demo mode easier & I now have found the settings & advanced tab. So thanks for the prompt.
I still think it is a faff but I will play with it. I doubt that I will try to mess about with the voltages because I am not sure that I will get them right. I would have to refer to the battery spec first & then transfer the info so it could end up in tears. How I hate electrics.

not that difficult or scary tbh!
just find the specs, if you want post them here, and someone will explain which value goes where in expert mode, job done.
Scary is leaving a wrong preset and compromising the battery.

V.

 

[Daydream believer]

not that difficult or scary tbh!
just find the specs, if you want post them here, and someone will explain which value goes where in expert mode, job done.
Scary is leaving a wrong preset and compromising the battery.

V.

Will do when temp reduces a bit. I am off to ostend then Holland for 5 weeks soon, so will be using charger every day for fridge, etc. correct setting will be important.
Thanks.

 

[superheat6k]

I am sure this is not the batteries, but the battery charger is quite loud so I'm sure it is simply a very inefficient old unit.

Anyway thanks to Paul R for the link - I'm ordering the triple output Victron.

Does anyone know of a coupon code for Battery Megastore ?

Thanks

 

[Daydream believer]

I am sure this is not the batteries, but the battery charger is quite loud so I'm sure it is simply a very inefficient old unit.

Anyway thanks to Paul R for the link - I'm ordering the triple output Victron.

Does anyone know of a coupon code for Battery Megastore ?

Thanks

Is battery megastore a dedicated victron dealer? if not I would go to one so you can ring up to get backup. I made that mistake. but did get a little help but could not get much assistance from a supplier who I had not purchased the charger from. If I had used a proper victron dealer I might not be lost as I am now. I am not sure that a triple stage is what you want. They are for specialist systems. Just look at victron's wiring diags. Have a chat to the victron people before you buy. All due respect to the forum but a manufacturer does know his equipment best

 

[PaulRainbow]

Is battery megastore a dedicated victron dealer? if not I would go to one so you can ring up to get backup. I made that mistake. but did get a little help but could not get much assistance from a supplier who I had not purchased the charger from. If I had used a proper victron dealer I might not be lost as I am now. I am not sure that a triple stage is what you want. They are for specialist systems. Just look at victron's wiring diags. Have a chat to the victron people before you buy. All due respect to the forum but a manufacturer does know his equipment best

The triple output charger is not for "specialist systems", it is for charging up to three separate battery banks. The OP will have a domestic bank and one, possibly two, engine batteries, he needs the triple output charger for those, unless he has another means of split charging.

This forum is as good a place as any for advise on a battery charger, you'd never get a hold of anyone from Victron for pre-purchase advise.

If you want some advise on setting up your own charger, post the exact make and model of your batteries and i'll tell you how to do it in expert mode, i fit Victron chargers by default.

 

[superheat6k]

The triple output charger is not for "specialist systems", it is for charging up to three separate battery banks. The OP will have a domestic bank and one, possibly two, engine batteries, he needs the triple output charger for those, unless he has another means of split charging.

This forum is as good a place as any for advise on a battery charger, you'd never get a hold of anyone from Victron for pre-purchase advise.

If you want some advise on setting up your own charger, post the exact make and model of your batteries and i'll tell you how to do it in expert mode, i fit Victron chargers by default.

Paul

The boat has three batteries in two banks. With this do I combine two outputs to the twin battery bank ?

Also it has the dreaded 0-1-both-2-0 switch, but I'm not in the mood for a major change !

Simplest is that I wire it into the original output connections and in the same place in the engine room.

BTW I got as slightly better price at ASAP through the trade link. £191 inc VAT, although they are round the corner from me so I can collect it later.

 

[PaulRainbow]

Paul

The boat has three batteries in two banks. With this do I combine two outputs to the twin battery bank ?

Also it has the dreaded 0-1-both-2-0 switch, but I'm not in the mood for a major change !

Simplest is that I wire it into the original output connections and in the same place in the engine room.

BTW I got as slightly better price at ASAP through the trade link. £191 inc VAT, although they are round the corner from me so I can collect it later.

No need to combine the outlets with this charger Trev, just use the two that you need.

 

[Momac]

I am sure this is not the batteries, but the battery charger is quite loud so I'm sure it is simply a very inefficient old unit.


Thanks

The Victron is silent. There is a fan but I have not heard it so I expect it may never needed to cut in. My old Newmar charger did always have a fan running which was just audible on a quiet night .

The hardest part was the physical fitting (and that was not exactly difficult). The new charger was much smaller than the old in my case.
Connecting the existing wires was a straight swap for me (after snipping off the old terminals) .
I don't recall any difficulty setting the charger running for the appropriate battery type. There is nothing complicated about it.

 

[sarabande]

A plus for Batterie Megastore. very good customer service. A guy called Russell talked me through a solar panel to controller to battery problem for nearly 30 minutes, while I unmade and remade the connections. Victron kit, through from panel to batteries.

I agree with the question "Why do you need a full time charger ?" If the alternators are even slightly clever ones, and you have no "moored in marina" power demands, then the batteries should easily maintain the charge for 2/ 3/ 4 weeks. This points towards a couple of (say) 50W solar panels plus a controller that you can rig on leaving, or can be used at anchor during the day to keep the V up.. One less yellow or blue cable to unhook on departing, and gives you an element of autonomy if/when we have power outages this winter.

 

[Refueler]

I agree with the question "Why do you need a full time charger ?" If the alternators are even slightly clever ones, and you have no "moored in marina" power demands, then the batteries should easily maintain the charge for 2/ 3/ 4 weeks. This points towards a couple of (say) 50W solar panels plus a controller that you can rig on leaving, or can be used at anchor during the day to keep the V up.. One less yellow or blue cable to unhook on departing, and gives you an element of autonomy if/when we have power outages this winter.

I am always amazed at the lengths some go to to keep batterys topped up.

I accept that not all of us are live-aboards ... not all have fridges etc. but surely for many who have low to modest demands - the shore power + small solar panel is enough ?
I'm lucky that my boats all sit at bottom of my garden and power is always there. On cruises .. my low demand is solved by simple means even at anchor .... small trickle solar panel to one battery out of the two as safety measure.

 

[KompetentKrew]

Is battery megastore a dedicated victron dealer? if not I would go to one so you can ring up to get backup. I made that mistake. but did get a little help but could not get much assistance from a supplier who I had not purchased the charger from. If I had used a proper victron dealer I might not be lost as I am now. I am not sure that a triple stage is what you want. They are for specialist systems. Just look at victron's wiring diags. Have a chat to the victron people before you buy. All due respect to the forum but a manufacturer does know his equipment best

Battery Megastore is listed on Victron's site as a dealer.

I'm unimpressed with Victron's sales model - it's up to the dealer how much support they give you. Victron may or may not choose to answer technical questions directly - when I asked them about their VE.Smart networking they told me to ask my dealer or on their community forums.

Prices reflect this dealer model - I recently bought about €1100 worth of Victron kit (a Multiplus, bluetooth dongle for it, and also a SmartSolar - shipping was €65) and mail-bombed about 20 of their EU dealers for a price quote. I've deleted all the emails now, but I think quotes ranged as high as €1300 or €1400. I ended up buying from Boutique Solaire in France, who were very helpful over email, but they're the French equivalent of Battery Megastore so I don't know how much help they'll be if I have questions or problems.

If there was a local electrician who was a Victron dealer, who everybody knew and recommended then I'd happily buy the kit from them - I'm not saying you shouldn't pay the premium for better service, but the problem is that you don't know how good a dealer's support is if you don't have recommendations from friends and you're forced to pick a dealer at random.

 

[superheat6k]

So ordered yesterday from ASAP to their Hamble store, so I called them to see when I could collect it. Not a problem we can send it direct to you instead - arrived today- Excellent service.

So yesterday I dug out my DC clamp on and went ameasuring. One Output is not connected, the two stbd batteries that are I discover massive 230AH Varta are paired in parallel, so I assume the domestic set. The Port is similar but a lone battery also connected to the Genny and Stern Thruster.

Alarmingly there is a base load on this charger output of ~ 1.3 amps so that's sending out ~ 18 AH per hour.

Do the maths and assuming a low charger efficiency through its transformer at low draw I reckon that may account for a good deal of the 240 KWH I am using.

So now I have a bit more investigating to find whether this simply an overcharging situation or if something is using that power. Interestingly I did note the battery voltage on the charger was rather high at 15.6v, which dropped to 14.2 when the battery was isolated. I left it off yesterday afternoon, so if there is an 18 AH base load I reckon by this evening the battery will be virtually flat.

I'm hoping it isn't goosed.

Also I have noticed Grand Banks put the charger output to the output / alternator / ships load side of the battery isolators, not the battery side. So if the battery isolators are off then there is no charger feed.

The domestics draw from the load side of the battery isolators through a 0 - 1 - All - 2 rotary switch, where 2 is the Domestic or stbd bank.

So

1 Do I move the charger feeds to direct to battery

2 Do I swap the cables at the rotary isolator so 1 is the Domestics as this means just one click for ancillary power to ships services.

Thanks.

 

[Tranona]

Sounds like a rewire needed. Yes to charger to batteries. Decide which batteries are which and split the circuits and banks accordingly with split charging from the engines and a battery monitor.

Going back to your original question, if the charger is continually running at that rate then it is going somewhere - not the batteries as they will be full. So something is drawing current from the batteries and the charger is running to provide it. That needs resolving first before you fir the hew charger.

 

[PaulRainbow]

The charging cables need to be fitted so that the charger works when the batteries are isolated (obviously), but it makes no difference whether you connect them direct to the batteries, or to the battery cables where they connect to the 1-2-B switch, it's a case of whichever is the easiest.

Ref the mystery current draw, do either engine alternators feel warm ? Would be worth disconnecting them and seeing if the draw goes away.

 

[superheat6k]

The engine alternators connect the engine side of the battery isolators, with (I think, but do need to check this) a short link cable from the starter motor to the alternator, so in other words DO NOT EVER turn off the battery isolators with engines running. The charger connections are simple enough to hop from one side of the isolator switch to the other.

So with the battery isolators off the current draw disappears so that would rule out the engine alternators. Also after 24 hours off the battery had settled nicely at 14.0 volts.

But this bank does run the Genny and Stern thruster, so possibly a leakage through the Genny, but these connections are all simple enough to lift off one at a time at the +VE battery terminal.

Also as I now understand the separate Services battery selector, which is downstream of the battery isolators, parallels from both banks, so likely simplest I only ever run on the stbd bank. I will swap the port & stbd feed cables so '1' becomes the normal position, then All would only be used to parallel the banks (there is no cross over solenoid), and I can't see a need for position 2, unless the stbd bank were completely drained, as this rotary switch does feed the engine run supplies (both port and stbd from selected source).

I will scan the diagram after I have added the extra items installed to the standard diagram.

One thing Grand Banks did not skimp on is the conductor size for the main power cables or quality of the various attachments. this is at least 150 and possibly 180mm2. You get the feeling all the gear they have used is seriously heavy duty.

So one final question - the Victron is 30a output, which is the highest Victron offer in this range. the Max "suggested" bank capacity is 300 AH, whereas I have, I discover, 690 AH (Port 230 + Stbd 460). The set up has certainly coped for 30 years on a 40 amp charger, and in reality will rarely be without either shorepower or engine generation, and the latter would always follow say a night at anchor, so can I be confident the 30a will cope ?

I was surprised how compact the thing is.

 

[roaringgirl]

Something is drawing that current. I would be disconnecting things one by one to figure out what it is.

 

[KompetentKrew]

So one final question - the Victron is 30a output, which is the highest Victron offer in this range. the Max "suggested" bank capacity is 300 AH, whereas I have, I discover, 690 AH (Port 230 + Stbd 460). The set up has certainly coped for 30 years on a 40 amp charger, and in reality will rarely be without either shorepower or engine generation, and the latter would always follow say a night at anchor, so can I be confident the 30a will cope ?

I daresay it'll charge the batteries, but I replaced my charger recently and the recommendations I could find were all for charge capacity exceeding 10% of bank capacity.

Are they flooded lead-acid or AGM?

Mastervolt's FAQ recommends larger, at least for AGM, stating "Is having 10% of my battery capacity as charge capacity sufficient? Definitely not. You can assume 25% and up to as much as 50% with Mastervolt batteries. The old 10% rule was common in the days when battery chargers had no current and voltage regulation, and too high a current could overcharge the batteries."

I bought the 70A Multiplus and I have a 330Ah bank.

In the meantime I had been charging my bank with a very old dumb charger that I had lying around, which had been charging the batteries with only about 3A. It worked, but slowly.

My previous charger was 30A - i.e. 9% of capacity - and a test after some years showed the batteries to be in good condition.