Replacement Mast for a Centaur.....

[aquaplane]

I had a new Z Spars mast on my Centaur after the Proctor one got broken. The original boom was reused, they had a fitting to replace the round boom roller reefing bit. I don't know how much it cost because someone else paid for it. I got new standing and running rigging and came out of it winning a bit so I'm not asking too many questions.

My Centaur is for sale for £5000 and is in sailaway condition. It doesn't have a plotter, and doesn't need one. A plotter won't turn a sows ear into a silk purse. If you have a £40k AWB, fit a plotter, Centaur owners have managed with less, sometimes much less, for years.

There are things a new owner could reasonably spend money on to update/renew things but that's the same with all mature boats.

My engine started last week, after 6 months winterised, first try

 

[Seajet]

In our Club yard there is a Centaur and a Longbow(ketch) we can not get the owners to shift either of them and they are taking up useful space, the Centaur has just been refurbished with a replacment (second hand rig) and the Longbow which has been sitting for about four years is claimed to have a new engine. As the owners still pay our storage charges we can not find a way to shift them.
Anyone in Scotland as keen as the OP?

At our club - which has extremely reasonable fees - there was a worry that the limited space ashore might become some sort of storage for old boats...

Now, active members who might find a snag with the boat, illness in the family, that sort of thing can keep the cruiser ashore for a season at the usual low rates; but after that, the rates quintriple as a boost to ' sort it or **** Off !

This is only administered fairly with personal conditions taken into account, but by and large it has prevented the club being taken advatage of as a storage yard.

 

[Quandary]

We now do the same but since our rates are lower than the commercial yards it is not working. They are supposed to present a case to remain but when launching day comes they find an emergency. We can not expel them if they continue to pay but we now plan to make failure to get permission to remain in the yard after launching day an offence leading to expulsion.

 

[Tranona]

We now do the same but since our rates are lower than the commercial yards it is not working. They are supposed to present a case to remain but when launching day comes they find an emergency. We can not expel them if they continue to pay but we now plan to make failure to get permission to remain in the yard after launching day an offence leading to expulsion.

Our club is very strict on storage, The maximum outside the winter period is two months for GRP and 3 months for wood unless either the boat is undergoing osmosis treatment (very rare now) or the owner has died.

The rules were established right from the start with our latest facility in 1987 and enforced. Problem starts when you have a more relaxed policy and then seek to change it, leading to the problems many clubs with storage are now facing.

 

[JumbleDuck]

We now do the same but since our rates are lower than the commercial yards it is not working. They are supposed to present a case to remain but when launching day comes they find an emergency. We can not expel them if they continue to pay but we now plan to make failure to get permission to remain in the yard after launching day an offence leading to expulsion.

Why can't you just say "We will not store your boat any longer" and return any money they pay?

 

[Tam Lin]

In reply to the OP. I bought a Centaur which was in reasonable condition (according to the survey) I have spent three times more than what it cost me refitting it and missed a lot of sailing time. I would be lucky to get back half of what I have spent on her if I was to sell her.
Saving money by doing up an old boat sounds appealing. In reality it can cost more than getting a loan and buying a well sorted one.

 

[ghostlymoron]

Very true. How many stories do we hear of people wanting to buy a cheap boat with a known problem (Contrast 32, Westerly Longbow eg) it's very alluring but it's easy to buy a money pit. At the moment good boats are selling at reasonable prices so there's nothing to be gained by buying a wreck and ploughing thousands into it. DON'T DO IT.

In reply to the OP. I bought a Centaur which was in reasonable condition (according to the survey) I have spent three times more than what it cost me refitting it and missed a lot of sailing time. I would be lucky to get back half of what I have spent on her if I was to sell her.
Saving money by doing up an old boat sounds appealing. In reality it can cost more than getting a loan and buying a well sorted one.

 

[thesaintlyone]

In reply to the OP. I bought a Centaur which was in reasonable condition (according to the survey) I have spent three times more than what it cost me refitting it and missed a lot of sailing time. I would be lucky to get back half of what I have spent on her if I was to sell her.
Saving money by doing up an old boat sounds appealing. In reality it can cost more than getting a loan and buying a well sorted one.

That I suppose depends on the circumstances in all honesty having thought it through I would not now get a fix er upper centaur as A) im now more partial to the Griffon B) Good ready to sail centaurs and Griffons can be had for around the £5000 mark which I can now put together after completing the jouster I have some funds to be able to consider getting a Griffon

However in the case of the Longbow of which the lowest price I have found is £8000 (only because I know someone) most of which are on the market for around £12000

Which is way out of my budget even if I could get a loan which for me would be very difficult.

Doing up a project is very viable but it depends on what you buy and how sensible you are about it.


With a generally solid boat Rigging, Seacocks, Engines and even Interior Woodwork can all be replaced if you have the appropriate skill set and the boat is worth it market research and planning are the key.

I have spent alot of time looking over this particular Longbow and feel confident that it is very viable way to get the size and type of boat that I want. This isnt my buisness so profit is not an issue but I dont expect to be paying over the odds for it either even after all the work is done and at the end ill have the boat I want.
But only if the initial buy price is right cause if its not then i will go for one of those Griffons or maybe the enginless seacockless contessa 32 in the same yard

Doing up Josam taught me so much plus I know all of her systems and the condition of things like Seacocks, electrics, running rigging etc cause they are all brand new. and I learnt how to put those things in.

Can I ask what were the extra expenses after the refit you refer to.

Regards

 

[thesaintlyone]

Ghostlymoron who says the longbow is a wreck???? Ive done my homework she needs work to the systems but is not in bad shape.

 

[ghostlymoron]

It's a reasonable assumption for a boat that is apparently being sold way below market value.

 

[thesaintlyone]

What is your definition of a wreck???

 

[thesaintlyone]

Your statement is from your point of view please try to see it from mine.
A) For various reasons I have poor credit rating and because of this I cannot get a reasonable interest loan on anything near approaching £8000 let alone £12000
B) if i was to sell Josam at the market price £3900 based on another jouster and even sell my car for £2000 that stil leaves a shortfall of £3000 suppose I could get a loan for £3000 but with my credit rating i would be looking at 150% interest.

Now on the other hand there is a Westerly Longbow that for various reasons (I understand one of the owners died sadly) got put in the yard over the winter over 10years ago and has not been visited since by anyone

Its hull is Solid and bilges and interior totally bone dry but the engine hasnt run since. Not nessacarily dead but even if it needs replacing there are used tested volvos on the market for £1500 (not getting into another debate over Electric propulsion Lol)
Standing rigging is solid But i'll replace all the running rigging
The electricals are out of date not the biggest job in the world not including toys like GPS, AIS etc but again an easy fix
I would definitely Replace all execpt the blakes seacocks and hoses not always physically easy but again viable (Did it on Josam) and cockpit drain hoses.
The Headlining in the cabin is panelled vinyl so no dreaded droop although the vee berth is drooped but will probably have a mate reline it with carpet material which looks lovely throughout on Josam the Portlights in the vee berth are flaking paint but again viable to fix
Other than that its basic checking of systems like gas, water, etc and some bloody good cleaning in and out

In fact the biggest expenses are Toys and wants like Solar, Roller Furling, Lazy Jacks, Sailpack. GPS Chartplotter etc not nessacary requirements but things I want on any boat I buy

So hopefully you see for some quality investment and labor I can get the boat I want for an affordable price paying for things as I go

The owner has not placed this boat on the market and it is only because I had Josam in the yard there that I'm aware of her and the price I am willing to pay is based on the market value all the above work and that I could get a sorted longbow for £8000 right now.

If the owner decides he wants too much then I will walk away and look at Griffons or the Contessa 32 thats also sitting in the yard without care but thats another story

Regards

 

[PaulRainbow]

If the Longbow has been sitting for 10 years you will need to replace the standing rigging, most (if not all) insurance companies won't touch it otherwise.

It will need completely re-plumbing.
Lots (if not all) of the wiring will need sorting out.
All of the pumps (bilge, water, shower etc will need overhauling, if not replacing.
What about the cooker and fridge (if fitted) ?
I doubt the upholstery is up to much, allow a grand for a decent job in the saloon, more for cabins.
New batteries.
Heads will need an overhaul, if not a replacement.
How about sails ? A main or genoa will set you back circa £1500 a piece.
New fenders, lines, lifebuoy etc.
Sprayhood and sailcovers are most likely knackered.

There are a myriad of other "small" items that may/will need attention as soon as you start disturbing things. Portlight seals, hatch seals, various taps, switches, gas installation, fuel lines, hinges, handles, fastenings etc etc. The step up in terms of things to spend your money on, from your Jouster to a 30 odd footer is massive. More stuff, bigger stuff, bigger bills.

All of the above cost the same for an 8 grand Longbow as they do for an expensive yacht, so the cheaper the project the harder it is to get the figures to stack up. That's not to say it isn't possible to do a "project" boat, but IMO you are looking at the wrong boats.

You are looking at wrecks that need more money spending on them than it's viable to do so. And you are looking at wrecks, a 40 year old boat that has a sound plastic hull but has been sitting for 10 years, requiring a total refit, is a wreck.

You'd be better off finding something that is useable for a bargain price. Somewhere out there someone has a nice boat that they will sell for peanuts. Maybe he's not short of a few quid and just wants out of it because his wife doesn't like sailing. Maybe he's just lost his job as a Euro MP and can't afford the berthing fees, perhaps he's fallen on hard times and your stupidly low offer will keep the mortgage company off his back for a bit. Rest assured, he is out there, go find him.

 

[Tam Lin]

You have got loads of sensible advice from the forum but it is only advice and can be ignored. If you buy the Longbow do let us know how you get on.

 

[JumbleDuck]

B) if i was to sell Josam at the market price £3900 based on another jouster

Don't raise your hopes, I'm afraid. You're unlikely to sell a Jouster for a grand short of the going rate for a reasonable Centaur. Divide by two, I suspect.

If the Longbow has been sitting for 10 years you will need to replace the standing rigging, most (if not all) insurance companies won't touch it otherwise.

It will need completely re-plumbing.
Lots (if not all) of the wiring will need sorting out.
All of the pumps (bilge, water, shower etc will need overhauling, if not replacing.
What about the cooker and fridge (if fitted) ?
I doubt the upholstery is up to much, allow a grand for a decent job in the saloon, more for cabins.
New batteries.
Heads will need an overhaul, if not a replacement.
How about sails ? A main or genoa will set you back circa £1500 a piece.
New fenders, lines, lifebuoy etc.
Sprayhood and sailcovers are most likely knackered.

That seems a little pessimistic. There is no reason why pipework, pumps, toilet, fenders and rope should all turn to dust after ten years disuse.

 

[PaulRainbow]

That seems a little pessimistic. There is no reason why pipework, pumps, toilet, fenders and rope should all turn to dust after ten years disuse.

Pumps and heads will need servicing, at least.
I think pipes will need changing.
Fenders, maybe.
Rope, was used before laying around for 10 years, how good will it be ?

 

[JumbleDuck]

Pumps and heads will need servicing, at least.
I think pipes will need changing.
Fenders, maybe.
Rope, was used before laying around for 10 years, how good will it be ?

It probably depends on how the boat was laid up. I pulled the Drascombe out of the water today using a rope between car and trailer which is at least thirty years old. It didn't break.

I'd worry less about age and more about a sooper-dooper bargain price.

 

[thesaintlyone]

JumbleDuck thats why I said if that was best case scenario.

The running rigging will be replaced along with Seacocks and hoses as a matter of course. Each job that requires work can be sorted individually over time i have looked at the standing rigging and its okay The vinyl cushions do need attention but its something that can be done at a later date and would only cost a grand if I paid someone else which is not my plan. Same is true with many of the Job's

The price is what im willing to pay for a boat that needs an Overhaul of its systems and hasnt been visited in 10 years if the owner wants too much then I will walk away.

 

[PaulRainbow]

i have looked at the standing rigging and its okay

What qualifies you to make that statement ?

You will not get insurance on a Longbow with standing rigging of unknown vintage.

I recently bought a Discus that has been very well looked after throughout it's life. In the last three years, due to work commitments, the previous owner hasn't used her much, if at all. She's in pretty decent shape overall, but the electronics are out of the Arc. The engine is spot on, as is the GRP and woodwork.

Upholstery needs replacing, a grand. No point in bodging a DIY job, or getting granny/auntie/wife to do an amateur job, half the cost is materials.

Running rigging, hit and miss. Replaced it all apart from the jib halyard that was replaced in 2013 when she had a new Sailspar furler.

Standing rigging, unknown vintage. Surveyor said it looks fine, insurance companies all say new rigging by end of season, at the latest. Another grand.

Sail cover needs £130 worth of re-stitching or £240 for a new one.

Sprayhood needs replacing.

Genoa had seen better days. New one £1500 (managed to find an in stock one half price).

Needs antifouling. That's £210 for the lift in and out, £100 materials and £280 to unstep/re-step the mast to do the rigging at the same time.

The majority of things onboard worked, lights, fridge, eberspacher, toilet, water system, batteries are OK, solar panels work etc etc.

But, i had to service the toilet and all of the plumbing (replaced all the fresh water pipes and accumulator). Most of the fluorescent tubes needed changing, very dim. The shower pump needs stripping or replacing, as it won't pump. Then you get all the odd little things like taps starting to drip because the washers have gone hard. Nothing that cost a fortune, but a lot of little things soon add.

All of this with a well looked after sailaway boat. We did sail her away and i've been sailing her while doing the above. I had also allowed £3000 for rigging and upholstery plus another 2 or 3 grand for "bits and pieces". So far, the rigging and upholstery has only come to about £2300 as i got a really good deal on some rope and found some brand new braid on the boat. But, the new Genoa swallowed the saving. I'm still very comfortably in budget with the 2 or 3 grand for the oddments.

The reason i'm still well in budget is because i didn't buy with rose tinted specs. I assumed the worst in every case and allowed a sensible price for each item. You have to be pessimistic or you lose your shirt. This isn't my first rodeo, i've been buying and selling stuff all of my life. My last boat didn't need hardly anything doing to it, just a few electronic toys adding. I used it for 4 years and sold it for a profit. The guy selling it was desperate for some cash and i kicked him in the nuts with a price, he took it. One before that needed some work and i just got my money back.

I expect this one to be another case of just getting my money back. That seems like a decent deal to me. The boat will be top notch when i'm finished and it will be finished and equipped exactly how i want it. It will be as good a Discus as any out there, so should be a relatively easy sale. I lose my time, but i consider that to be a fair price.

 

[thesaintlyone]

I can promise you I am not viewing this with rose tinted specs I have planned the restoration out fully and have accounted for everything including a replacement engine and standing rigging if needed and my purchase offer is based on that. If the seller is looking for more then I will happily walk away and look for something else.
Another point is Buying to Sell whilst I did buy the Jouster to get me in the position that I could start sailing and upgrade my next boat be it this longbow or a Griffon which is my other desired boat will be a much longer term prostpect as they both have the interior space and features I'm looking for.
So certain things will be done to get her ready to sail and seaworthy whilst things like electronic toys and interior upholstery will be jobs for the future.

Its all about what you want to buy you mention sailcovers for £240 they are available on ebay for £70 to fit the longbow maybe not the top quality but they work.