Replacement Foresail Roller Furling?

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neil1967

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It looks like the 2004 Rotostay IV roller furling fitted to my Oyster 406 has terminally failed - the foil has snapped where it enters the drum, and I believe replacements are likely to be hard to come by. If I need to replace the whole lot I know it will be expensive - probably around 4K, so I would be interested in your views on the merits or otherwise of the various roller furling options available for a 40' 12 ton yacht with a 10mm dia forestay. The obvious contenders seem to be Harken (ESP or the expensive Mk IV), ProFurl and Selden/Facnor 304S, but I'm happy to consider others. My sailing is mostly day cruising, with the occasional longer trip (eg Biscay). Potentially an Atlantic crossing, but unlikely to be going RTW!

Many thanks
 
How about extracting the snapped stub from the drum then cutting the bottom off the foil to undistorted metal, then putting it back in? Be careful not to damage the forestay in the process. You'll only lose a few inches off the overall length and the sail probably doesn't go to the top of it anyway.

Then stop using the winch to haul it in. Hand pull only, then you can't break it. There is never a need to winch a furling line.
 
I've recently been investigating an old Sailspar r/r gear I acquired with a boat a while back, and all the comments about Sailspar roller reefing I found on YBW and elsewhere were highly complimentary about both the quality of the gear and the helpfulness of the manufacturers (a small firm near Colchester).

Having contacted them myself the other day they were very helpful to me, even though I wasn't the original purchaser and might well not be purchasing anything else from them.

I'm not in a position to comment on their gear's relative merits against the other manufacturers you mention, but it's a lot better than Plastimo and seems nicely engineered to me. The kit I've got is apparently an older version from pre-2007 (they suggested I sent them a photo and they'd confirm it), and is still in good order now. They could also supply some spares I enquired about.

More info on them here. Sailspar Continuous Line System : Sailspar The price list on the website is well out of date, but they are very responsive by phone or email. I think they're mainly involved in engineering for the offshore wind industry these days, but still manufacturing and selling reefing gear.

I've no involvement with them apart from as a satisfied non-customer!
 
Catalina36 said:
How about extracting the snapped stub from the drum then cutting the bottom off the foil to undistorted metal, then putting it back in? Be careful not to damage the forestay in the process. You'll only lose a few inches off the overall length and the sail probably doesn't go to the top of it anyway.

Then stop using the winch to haul it in. Hand pull only, then you can't break it. There is never a need to winch a furling line.
Click to expand...

Thank you - I had not thought about shortening the foil, that might be a possibility.

As for furling by winching, I normally do it by hand, but there are occasions when it simply is not possible. With a 135-150% genoa if the wind get up quickly there is an awful lot of pressure on the furling line. Perhaps it is significant that, either as original or as fitted by a PO, there is a stainless steel wear plate where the furling line would rub on the fiberglass when using the spinnaker winch to furl the genoa.
 
LittleSister said:
I've recently been investigating an old Sailspar r/r gear I acquired with a boat a while back, and all the comments about Sailspar roller reefing I found on YBW and elsewhere were highly complimentary about both the quality of the gear and the helpfulness of the manufacturers (a small firm near Colchester).
Click to expand...

Thank you - unfortunately according to their website the maximum forestay size is 8mm, otherwise I would be interested.
 
neil1967 said:
As for furling by winching, I normally do it by hand, but there are occasions when it simply is not possible. With a 135-150% genoa if the wind get up quickly there is an awful lot of pressure on the furling line.
Click to expand...

Not sure I've ever tried it, but have read that to take the pressure off, you can furl while sailing downwind instead of conventionally upwind. Less relative velocity, and the drag on the sail taken on a sheet instead of the foil, though that sheet would have to be gradually slackened as the sail comes in.
 
I have an elderly Harken on my boat (Rustler 36) which was becoming to the end of its life. Shocked at the price of a Furlex, i did a survey of what was available and decided on a ProFurl 350.

Its now sitting in the boat yard waiting to be fitted; so cannot report back yet.
 
neil1967 said:
Thank you - I had not thought about shortening the foil, that might be a possibility.

As for furling by winching, I normally do it by hand, but there are occasions when it simply is not possible. With a 135-150% genoa if the wind get up quickly there is an awful lot of pressure on the furling line. Perhaps it is significant that, either as original or as fitted by a PO, there is a stainless steel wear plate where the furling line would rub on the fiberglass when using the spinnaker winch to furl the genoa.
Click to expand...
I've had the same problem on occasions and I've found that even the slightest tension on the sheet can make the difference. It's the one occasion I'll ignore my profound dislike of a flogging sail and just let the sheet go entirely - take it completely off the winch so that you're only fighting the friction of the wind over the slack sail. Go head to wind, keep a steady pressure on the furling line and in the occasional lulls you can win a foot here and there. Even a few turns on the foil reduces the sail area so it gradually gets easier. I've never failed to get it in eventually without resorting to the winch but it can be a struggle.

The torsional effect on the foil section when caught between a large loaded sail and a winch is huge and it's only an inch or so cross-section of aluminium extrusion. Eventually it'll just wring its neck at the point where it joins the drum.
 
The load on the foil is just the same when you sheet in close hauled as when you furl with a winch, provided there is no huge excess friction in the system.
Think about what's happening when you're close hauled with the sail reefed. The sheet force is turned into a bigger torque because the luff of the sail is now a thick roll. you're tensioning the sheet with a two-speed Lewmar. There is a lot of torque between the drum and the foil.

There should be no harm in easing the sheet and winching the furling line with a winch in high gear, if the system is in proper working order, and the sheet is eased (not slack or flapping, but eased so the sail is just de-powered).
That's different from going at it madly in low gear against a bar tight sheet of course.
 
Mine is Harken which came with the boat 25 years ago. I have no idea how the others stack up but I have not had any problems so that is what I would buy. Only maintenance is to spray the bearings with WD40 every year.
 
lw395 said:
The load on the foil is just the same when you sheet in close hauled as when you furl with a winch, provided there is no huge excess friction in the system.
Think about what's happening when you're close hauled with the sail reefed. The sheet force is turned into a bigger torque because the luff of the sail is now a thick roll. you're tensioning the sheet with a two-speed Lewmar. There is a lot of torque between the drum and the foil.

There should be no harm in easing the sheet and winching the furling line with a winch in high gear, if the system is in proper working order, and the sheet is eased (not slack or flapping, but eased so the sail is just de-powered).
That's different from going at it madly in low gear against a bar tight sheet of course.
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I don't know why anyone who cares for their sails should accept the idea of letting the sails flog every time they want to furl them. I have had furling jibs since 1988 and almost immediately changed my routine to downwind furling. My last laminate jib lasted something over ten years, with heavy use, and my current one is in perfect condition after several years of lighter use. So often, I watch other boats struggling outside a destination with their genoas flogging like mad, often in winds of F5 or more,, when all it takes is establishing a little sea room, a turn to leeward and a few seconds pull on the line, something I can easily do by myself while helming. Easing the halyard first is also a necessary routine.
 
johnalison said:
I don't know why anyone who cares for their sails should accept the idea of letting the sails flog every time they want to furl them. I have had furling jibs since 1988 and almost immediately changed my routine to downwind furling. My last laminate jib lasted something over ten years, with heavy use, and my current one is in perfect condition after several years of lighter use. So often, I watch other boats struggling outside a destination with their genoas flogging like mad, often in winds of F5 or more,, when all it takes is establishing a little sea room, a turn to leeward and a few seconds pull on the line, something I can easily do by myself while helming. Easing the halyard first is also a necessary routine.
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I agree about the flogging. It is completely unhelpful in terms of getting the sails to furl neatly.
Sometimes it is not convenient to bear off much when you want to wind some jib in. Common to be approach Portsmouth entrance, and bearing off would take you into the ship channel. So ease a little sheet, wind a little furling, rinse and repeat is often most convenient.
Depending on the size of the sail, a winch may be appropriate.

Alternatively, if we're sailing downwind with a lot of genoa, and wish to reef and head up, leaving the sheet where it is and rolling in some genoa as we head up works smoothly and easily with no flogging.

The sail rolls neatly first time if it's got a little tension on the sheet, not quite drawing. Untidy rolling can't be good for the sail either?
 
Kukri said:
Why would anyone not furl the headsail with the sail in the lee of the mainsail, ie downwind?
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Because running off downwind is not always what you want to do, it's not always even an option.
If you choose to make it your only option, that's up to you, but it's a significant and unnecessary limitation.
 
doug748 said:
Mine is Harken which came with the boat 25 years ago. I have no idea how the others stack up but I have not had any problems so that is what I would buy. Only maintenance is to spray the bearings with WD40 every year.
Click to expand...
My chandler warned against using WD40 on Delrin or Torlon bearings as it affects them. Fresh water only, he said.
 
My Facnor SD furler is now 14 years old. As bearings are not replaceable, it's had a new drum at 7 years old, a new top svivel at 8 years old, and a second new top swivel last year. Drum way over £1K, top swivel just over £1K with fitting by rigger. I have yet to find a rigger who will attempt to change bearings in a Facnor SD, though a very few workshop-enabled owners claim to have done so. Warranty of course is 5 years......

At the Southampton Boat Show last September I looked at new systems, though for a slightly samller boat than yours. Profurl and Facnor (now the same company group) were still claiming their bearisngs were "sealed for life" and non-replaceable. I took Profurl off my list of possible replacements next time the currently 7 year old Facnor drum dies.
 
lw395 said:
Because running off downwind is not always what you want to do, it's not always even an option.
If you choose to make it your only option, that's up to you, but it's a significant and unnecessary limitation.
Click to expand...
Nobody said it was the only option, merely what should be advantageous for most people. Only very occasionally in a river can I not find room to furl downwind.
 
Catalina36 said:
How about extracting the snapped stub from the drum then cutting the bottom off the foil to undistorted metal, then putting it back in? Be careful not to damage the forestay in the process. You'll only lose a few inches off the overall length and the sail probably doesn't go to the top of it anyway.

Then stop using the winch to haul it in. Hand pull only, then you can't break it. There is never a need to winch a furling line.
Click to expand...

I know my furler is only a lowly Plastimo on a 25ftr .... but on a river trip - we had incident with an overhead illegal power cable that bent the top section of my foil.

We dropped the mast ... slid the top bearing insert out and tied it of out of the way. Took a grinder and cut the foil carefully .. slid the foil up, removed the inner luff holding part which then the foil came of the stay. Put the top bearing into the foil ... we lost about 10" of foil ..

Never had to remove gear from stay .. genny still has more than enough foil ...

Cost ? zero.
 
An update. Whilst the drum rotates freely when not under load, it is a different matter when under pressure - the drum rocks a bit and has variable resistance to turning, from very little, to quite hard to turn - in other words, I think the drum bearings are shot. My local rigger is going to take a look and provide an assessment of the cost of repair (if possible) of both the drum and the foil, and advise on whether full replacement is necessary/preferable. When asked what system he would recommend, it was unequivocally 'Selden', which he said were much more reliable than Facnor - although he deals in all the major brands.
 
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