Replacement engines

carlton said:
That's why I said, (I know it's not what you want to hear...) :o

I know many people prefer to re-engine, but when you add up the cost it can often be better to just swap it for another with your choice of engines.

(I'm not making this sound any better, am I...?)
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As he's only just bought it...........no your not.;) He loves his boat.
 
carlton said:
Rob - not trying to piss on your fireworks but you may be better advised/healthier in the wallet by just changing the boat. (I know it's not what you want to hear...)
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I would call it more an excercise in due diligence....
If, I have problems with my engines the boats pretty much worthless. Its worth more to me. Fore warned is fore armed, so i may have a rough idea of what it costs.

I was not prepared to go in to debt to buy a boat, and would prefer to do it bit by bit. I may spend a bit more than what its worth, but, hey, who cares... I shall enjoy it while i do it :)
 
Robg71 said:
Thats great, thanks for the input.
I think i have probably come to a natural stall... As i dont have the info on what else was fitted by sunseeker when she was built...
But has given me good food for thought.....
I shall have to wait a month till i get back to jersey....
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I am enjoying the exercise now, as I have dug out some Sabre datasheets of th late 80's which I would correspond with your vessel. Sabre were great guys in their day, everything well on top of the spec.

320L had a number of transmission options, in your application ZF or Twin Disc was most likely. 320L lists ZF IRM 220/301 or Twin Disc 5061, This leaves you with a large scope when it comes to engine choice.

For example ZF 301 has a pleasure input rating of 360 kW or 480 Hp @ 2,800 rpm. The Twin Disc 5061 is a torque monster rated 345 kW or 460 Hp at 2,800 rpm. As for the ZFIRM 220 I have a mod which makes them live with almost 460 Hp up their chuff.

As for ratios suspect you will have 1.5:1 or maybe 2:1, as your Don Shead hull has a little more deadrise than current fashon so does not hang on the hump.

With transmissions you likely have, NEVER be tempted to let them go with the engines you will never recoup their value. Your input power and low hours will mean that boxes have never broken into a sweat. Most likely purchaser for your Ford Sabres will be commercial, angling boat with high hours will be looking for engine as 'insurance' against the day his motor goes pop. Commercial vesels will run deeper gearbox reduction rato's than you have so represent no value. Changing gearbox ratios IS NEVER viable.

Ok so you have say 1,000 hours on your current transmissions, one has been turning ahead the other astern for that time. When you re-power simply side for side your boxes and and they will now be running in the opposite direction for the next 1,000 hours so wear is perfectly even.

If you have a re-power 'plan' likely you will never have to put it into practice.
 
Latestarter1 said:
I am enjoying the exercise now, as I have dug out some Sabre datasheets of th late 80's which I would correspond with your vessel. Sabre were great guys in their day, everything well on top of the spec.

320L had a number of transmission options, in your application ZF or Twin Disc was most likely. 320L lists ZF IRM 220/301 or Twin Disc 5061, This leaves you with a large scope when it comes to engine choice.

For example ZF 301 has a pleasure input rating of 360 kW or 480 Hp @ 2,800 rpm. The Twin Disc 5061 is a torque monster rated 345 kW or 460 Hp at 2,800 rpm. As for the ZFIRM 220 I have a mod which makes them live with almost 460 Hp up their chuff.

As for ratios suspect you will have 1.5:1 or maybe 2:1, as your Don Shead hull has a little more deadrise than current fashon so does not hang on the hump.

If you have a re-power 'plan' likely you will never have to put it into practice.
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Now I am looking ata transmission
its a twin disc unit, 1.5:1 ratio
model mg-507-1
do i need any other details from here....
 
I went through a re-engine process 4 years ago of a 1986 boat.
I'm guessing if the engines are 1986 , so is the boat. When the old engines are out , you will need to reform and strengthen the engine and gearbox bearers/stringers/mounts for the new equipment and bear in mind that Volvo/Cummings/Yanmar are all different heights and you may need to raise the floor level! You may well need new props, shafts and bearings. You will need new larger intakes and strainers - should you upgrade the bilge pumps at the same time?. All the piping for for fuel supply will be in the wrong place and will need replacing and surely you are not going to leave 25 year old fuel tanks in there? And while there is space what about the water tank(s) condition - there will never be a beter time to replace it (them)! A complete new wiring loom and instruments/throttles will be needed (electronic).
When it is all completed at 50% over cost budget and 300% over time budget, you will love it and it will perform fantastically - just don't sell it in less than 6 years, the loss will be too horrendous!
Ask yourself before you start, is this the boat I want to keep into the foreseeable future? If not, it will cost no more to buy a bigger/faster/newer boat that fits your needs better!
Hopefully some useful food for thought.........
 
Robg71 said:
My shafts are an inch and a half... With halyard oil lubed seals... Anyone know how much power they would take....
Apparently my props are off the ark as well....
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Trouble with some engineers is that they spend too much time telling you what cannot be done, rather than thinking out of the box...........Cummins, Volvo or Yanmar have generally lower envelope all will ALL go where a Dover/Dorset went, width can sometimes be an issue with more modern motors, however there are work arounds, I have indexed adaptor plates and modified engine mounts to cant engines outwards a few degrees when shaft centres are real close.

MG 507-1A will be happy behind 425 SAE Hp at say 3,000 rpm and your 1 1/2 shafting needs a material check out, if it is Duplex will have no problem coping with this level of power. Do no write off your propellers too early, quality class 1 Nibral's can take refurbishment.

Your existing exhaust exhaust system will require careful planning requiring bespoke risers, highly likey that most of what you have can be retained with intelligent thought. Likewise existing Morse controls will work with electronic engines.

Sounds like the poster who went through the exercise with the 1986 vessel was being advised by bunch of pirates.

Keep heart
 
Thats great, many thanks.
Do the ratio's look right. I struggled to read the plate.
I know the shafts are stainless, but not sure of the type. (ill rephrase that, they appear to be stainless...
The exhaust at the moment, has water cooling straight after the turbo, with 8 inch stainless drain pipe for the rest. It looks knocked up in a fab shop. Nothing fancy but purposefull.... Would be easy to manufacture similar again to fit....
 
Rob, this is an interesting post, I've done loads of repowers over the years, Volvo yanmar, sabre, mermaids etc.

Are you really serious about re engineering your boat? If so why?
 
volvopaul said:
Rob, this is an interesting post, I've done loads of repowers over the years, Volvo yanmar, sabre, mermaids etc.

Are you really serious about re engineering your boat? If so why?
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Yes and no.
Im interested in the engineering side of what is fitted etc etc. plus i am a petrol head at heart, and more punch out the hole would be fantastic.
The other thought i had, ( and i have some weird ones) that at the moment, my engines have a good second hand value. If i scrap one, there are no parts for them, so are worthless. At the moment i am just looking in to it for feasability...
A sort of what if....
 
Robg71 said:
plus i am a petrol head at heart, and more punch out the hole would be fantastic.
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+1.
I'd go with a couple of Ilmor 725hp V10.
Shafts strength would not be an issue, you should just scrap them and fit a couple of Indy surface sterndrives.
Now, that would be a Rapallo bound to raise some eyebrows... :D
 
Robg71 said:
Yes and no.
Im interested in the engineering side of what is fitted etc etc. plus i am a petrol head at heart, and more punch out the hole would be fantastic.
The other thought i had, ( and i have some weird ones) that at the moment, my engines have a good second hand value. If i scrap one, there are no parts for them, so are worthless. At the moment i am just looking in to it for feasability...
A sort of what if....
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No harm in getting you head around 'what if' situation.

In my diesel go faster world we consider 'gasoline is for girls'.............

Your Ford motors will still have some value, particularly to a similar owner with a cooked engine and pretty much worthless vessel.

The AFC table with your Fords was smoke limited due to low injection pressure and they tended to gather speed. Modern engines will certainly give you a real punch out of the hole with zero smoke and far lower noise levels, altogether more sociable.

In my book Rapallo 36 is a real SS with nice Don Shead Bertram derived hull form and very capable, which Fords can never exploit. You could do engines in the 370/380 node, however the cost delta to go the whole hog and go into the 400/425 node is not huge. Solid mid 30 knot cruising has a big smile factor!
 
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Thats exactly what i would be looking for. And yes, when i consider myself a petrol head, i dont mean i considered petrol engines :) not a chance.....
I actually like the sound of these motors, but i dont think half the marina liked the smell when i fired them up yesterday. :)
Had a blast across the bay doing 32/34knots, only when i stopped to do some fishing my mate decided to tell me he gets sea sick....
 
Robg71 said:
Thats exactly what i would be looking for. And yes, when i consider myself a petrol head, i dont mean i considered petrol engines :) not a chance.....
I actually like the sound of these motors, but i dont think half the marina liked the smell when i fired them up yesterday. :)
Had a blast across the bay doing 32/34knots, only when i stopped to do some fishing my mate decided to tell me he gets sea sick....
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Tell your mate you are considering turning your boat into a 42 knot flying machine and see if he still wants to come for a ride!
 
Unless the existing Sabre engines are knackered which by your account they're not, I can't see the point in repowering especially with a pair of Iveco engines. Yes I know Iveco are a big name in trucks but they're not well known in marine engines and the problem is you could spend a fortune on a pair of Ivecos plus all the ancillaries and find yourself with a boat worth less than it is now. Even if you repowered with a pair of Volvos or Yanmars, the boat is not going to be worth a great deal more than it is now so its mostly money down the drain. IMHO, unless you are forced to repower due to knackered engines making a boat unsaleable, it always makes more financial sense to sell the boat and buy another.
One last point. Maybe I'm wrong but did not those Sabres also come in 370hp and 430hp versions? Have you investigated the cost of upgrading the existing engines?
 
Deleted User said:
Unless the existing Sabre engines are knackered which by your account they're not, I can't see the point in repowering especially with a pair of Iveco engines. Yes I know Iveco are a big name in trucks but they're not well known in marine engines and the problem is you could spend a fortune on a pair of Ivecos plus all the ancillaries and find yourself with a boat worth less than it is now. Even if you repowered with a pair of Volvos or Yanmars, the boat is not going to be worth a great deal more than it is now so its mostly money down the drain. IMHO, unless you are forced to repower due to knackered engines making a boat unsaleable, it always makes more financial sense to sell the boat and buy another.
One last point. Maybe I'm wrong but did not those Sabres also come in 370hp and 430hp versions? Have you investigated the cost of upgrading the existing engines?
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Mike,

Discussed in earlier thread.

When Cat purchased Sabre they scrapped off pretty much everything for ratings over 250 hp and all re-builds were sub contracted to Mermaid. Running anything over 250 hp is at best risky. Most pistons are NLA, 370/430 blocks were prone to failure, they were not a Ford item, they were a special casting and all long consigned to the scrap man.

High rated Dovers were a bit of a nausia, the Simms pump is pressure but not volume limited, whilst I was at Ford we looked at what Sabre was doing with interest. Without being able to raise injection pressure, just jucing up the pump start up performance is smokey as there is a natural tendancy for the injector to back up the fuelling retarding the timing. Transient response of these engines is also poor as AFC control is very smoke limited. I find start up smoke hateful.

I have been involved with several vessels with high rated Ford Sabres which have become re-power projects due to lack of Sabre parts support.

Plenty of Nelsons out there which have been re-powered and value has been improved, never to the point at which covers re-power costs, but certainly elevating them out of being a potential liability.

I tend to agree about IVECO AIFO, always the cheapest engine quote by a mile, however spec sheets totally misleading and woefully short on technical support.
 
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Latestarter1 said:
I have been involved with several vessels with high rated Ford Sabres which have become re-power projects due to lack of Sabre parts support.

Plenty of Nelsons out there which have been re-powered and value has been improved, never to the point at which covers re-power costs, but certainly elevating them out of being a potential liability.

I tend to agree about IVECO AIFO, always the cheapest engine quote by a mile, however spec sheets totally misleading and woefully short on technical support.
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Yup, I did hear that the high powered Sabres were a potential nightmare. I think there was a Broom 44 for sale with 430hp Sabres which was on the market for ages and was eventually repowered. I think the Nelsons though are a special case and worthy of consideration for repowering as there always seems to be a demand for used Nelsons and prices are high enough to make a repower at leastly partly viable.
Re Iveco engines and just as an aside, the very first machine my company sold in the UK back in 1983 had a Fiat Iveco engine and the customer concerned swears that that engine was the most powerful and reliable engine in any machine he ever bought from us and they've had dozens since:) The machine is still going strong somewhere in India
 
Have no real issues with IVECO AIFO engines.

Exept...............Spec sheets are written by bunch of optimists, marinisation is designed rather than engineered, for example on the NEF they make darn sure you regularly strip the charge air cooler because it has to come off to change the raw water pump impeller! No test points on the engine to do proper installation check. Not really an issue as they lob you a mouthwateringly low quote, you purchase the engine, rudimentary sign off process, then you are on your own.

Spent forever trying to sort out a NEF, ended up that whole installation was a can of worms never spotted when dealer signed engine off.

Also mentioned before, Cursor engines run real well, until you lose a head gasket that is, block has no machining tolerance and it becomes a throw away engine.

I will never forget doing engineering exercise for them to establish optimum lube oil drain interval, they published the interval marketing people had asked for long before all the data was even in!
 
I am interested to read Deleted User's comment that concurs with mine - don't replace. You will save yourself a huge amount of aggro and cash by changing the boat. Having been through this exercise with a boat we loved and were not going to change, 3 years after fitting new engines (and the rest) we decided to buy something newer! Needless to say, we didn't get any of the costs back, and I for one would not consider this exercise again!
 
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