Replacement boat

birdseye said:
I agree with the first sentence but not the second. Much of the french coast that you would day sail to from the uk is shallow with drying small harbours or bars.

Think twice about the French lift keelers. A French Beneteau salesman once told me that their lift keels were intended for shallow draft sailing not for drying out on a drying mooring . Not only that but most of them have very laborious ways of raising the keel which does make them impractical for regular sailing from drying moorings - I've heard tell of 100 winch turns to raise the keel.

My recommendation would be a bilge keeler or a multi. I have had both in my time and the late production bilge keelers l;ike moody336 or hunter 30 sail almost as well as cruising type fin keelers ie your malo
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The thing is, once one gets above about 25' lift keels become a major engineering exercise, to design and operate and also to maintain.

I give plans for high winter storage trestles to owners of Anderson 22's and other similar sized lift keelers, but it's quite a serious operation to raise a Southerly or similar and dig a pit beneath it, I've seen this done at my club and it didn't look much fun.

Southerlys are not to my personal taste sailing wise, an Ovni would be - apart from the swinging rudder blade - but they're pricey and alloy has a finite life; it seems like yesterday when my father and I launched my boat, but she's now 37 years old, might be dicey with a metal boat !

I agree it might be well worth looking at American boats, if one can get past the tax etc, they like their lift keelers.

Our soft mud half tide moorings only accomodate boats up to around 32', but they are sheltered with scenery and wildlife to gawp at and a short row from shore, I worked out a while ago where I'd rather be.

I do smile whenever I read of lift keelers being good for ditch crawling though, in the murky waters of the South Coast there's precious little difference between 2' keel up or 4'6" with it down, if some joker has discarded a cement mixer or shopping trolley ! :)
 
Seajet said:
' There you go, talking rubbish again '; I think that's my line when you decry lift keelers,
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I am not decrying lift keel boats. However, for all their supposed benefits very, very few people choose to buy them in the size range the OP is talking about, as evidenced by the short short list of possibles. Over the years many manufacturers have offered lift keel versions of their mainstream fixed keel boats - Weaterlys and Sadlers for example, but have never achieved significant sales. Even Beneteau and Jeanneau who have the benefit of the bigger French market for such boats and offer lift keel versions sell relatively few.

It is like many things that armchair observers think are good ideas, buyers who are in a position to buy think otherwise.

I don't have any difficulty with your "preference" - but just remember that others have other preferences and clearly lots of people prefer to have a deep keel boat that they keep on a deep water mooring or in a marina rataher than a small lift keeler on a drying mooring.
 
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birdseye said:
I agree with the first sentence but not the second. Much of the french coast that you would day sail to from the uk is shallow with drying small harbours or bars.

Think twice about the French lift keelers. A French Beneteau salesman once told me that their lift keels were intended for shallow draft sailing not for drying out on a drying mooring . Not only that but most of them have very laborious ways of raising the keel which does make them impractical for regular sailing from drying moorings - I've heard tell of 100 winch turns to raise the keel.

My recommendation would be a bilge keeler or a multi. I have had both in my time and the late production bilge keelers l;ike moody336 or hunter 30 sail almost as well as cruising type fin keelers ie your malo
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That is nothing new - the shallow tidal French harbours have always been there, but it is also true that there has been an explosion of marinas on the Atlantic coast of France that means a fin keel is no longer a signifficant barrier to cruising there. Of course shallow draft might give you the opportunity to use some of the shallower habours, but that does not seem sufficiently important for buyers when faced with the choice of fin or lifting keel. Twin keels as you suggested are another alternative, but there have been very few built of any size for the last 30 years so again it does not seem an attractive alternative to new boat buyers - which of course means limited availability to used boat buyers.

Taking the OPs requirements (remember he is swapping from a Regina) ths short list for twin keels would be even shorter than for lift keel.
 
Yet again, if you read my post properly you'd have seen my comments that above 25' lift keels become hard work for designers and boatbuilders, often for owners too, so I suggested the twin keel Fulmar, someone at my club had one of these and I found it an admirably fast and seaworthy boat while remaining practical.

I suppose a larger lift keeler worth a mention is the Barracuda, but that's a bit of a hairy machine for a man & wife crew, didn't exactly sell by the hundred, and I'd personally be a bit wary of any boat which relies on engine and battery power to get the keel up.

Good passage times though !

As I also mentioned, maintaining a lift keel takes effort, and with larger boats twin keels tend to make more sense unless one can find a good American lift keeler or Ovni for the right deal; at that size I'd think the main considerations would be on the lines of ' can it get through the French canals ', moorings are a choice with lots of options year to year.
 
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dancrane said:
No need to be uppish, Mr T. Your size of boat is rarely seen with twin or lifting keels...more's the pity. I'm sure you'd have more fun more often, if your draft wasn't restrictive.
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Actually, both my boats are shallow draft, one at 1m (and at one time it even had bilge keels so that I could use a drying mooring) and the other at 1.4m (the Bavaria). I bought it specifically because it was shallow draft for its size, one of the few modern 37' boats that can use the French canals, and of course useful here in Poole.

You seem to forget that most people know the pros and cons of different alternatives and make a conscious choice, well aware of the restrictions they might experience, but that is the choice they make. The real (and perceived) downsides of lift keel and shallow draft boats are well known, and buyers seem to avoid them!
 
I don't think I'd like a fin - I'm too fond of exploring shallow creeks and stopping anywhere I like, and I won't grow out of that when I can afford a bigger boat. But if I accepted the inability to dry out in lovely quiet spots, and the necessity to restrict all inshore work to deep anchorages, moorings or overpriced marina berths, I'm sure I'd go the whole way and get the slick keel which the designer had intended the boat to carry, rather than a cut-down version which still doesn't permit the shallow-water access I'd enjoyed previously.

No offence intended - I just don't understand the compromise. I'll be happy, sacrificing performance for low draft - but if I gave all that up for performance, I'd want the best available.

I'm confident we've sent the OP fast asleep. :rolleyes:
 
Tranona said:
Actuallyone at 1m (and at one time it even had bilge keels so that I could use a drying mooring) and the other at 1.4m (the Bavaria). I bought it specifically because it was shallow draft for its size, one of the few modern 37' boats that can use the French canals, and of course useful here in Poole.

You seem to forget that most people know the pros and cons of different alternatives and make a conscious choice, well aware of the restrictions they might experience, but that is the choice they make. The real (and perceived) downsides of lift keel and shallow draft boats are well known, and buyers seem to avoid them!
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' both my boats are shallow draft '

' The real and perceived downsides of lift keel and shallow draft boats are well known, and buyers seem to avoid them '

So thousands of owners of Anderson 22 & 26, Seal 22, 26 & 28, E-Boats, Parkers, Southerlys and Ovni's, Centaurs etc are just as perverted in their taste as you and I then ! :)

I agree with DanCrane, if I had another fin keeler she'd be another ' full fat ' deep keel version - or a lift keeler.

The very last thing I'd consider would be a shallow wing keel, people who reckon they stay upright on that at low water seem to think we dry out on billiard tables and clearly haven't walked on the mud around moorings...

There's also the point that ' Surface Drift ' comes into effect after gales, setting the whole upper 1 metre of the sea going to leeward so a lift keel which goes deeper than that is handy for cross-Channel or similar trips going to windward.
 
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Here's a Duellist, might be worth a look:

http://www.easternyachts.com/jillamandaii/index.htm

East coast Americans are keen on lifting keel sailing boats, some of them are quite exquisite. Not many in the UK though. Here is a Sparkman and Stephens Deb 33:

http://brixham.boatshed.com/ss_deb_33-boat-15201.html

The Deb was elongated by Dockrell Yachts and became the Dockrell 37:

http://wales.boatshed.com/dockrell_37-boat-144440.html

If you lurk, they do come up quite often. Dockrell sold quite a few.


You would still probably want legs for drying out this style of boat. Possibly ok if you had a mooring that dried a bit, on springs maybe. Then you have the worry of stuff bunging up the slot. I might prefer having a fin or long keeler drying in this manner. It does no harm on a soft mud bottom provided you know 100% that she cannot settle on the mooring sinker.
 
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Seajet said:
' both my boats are shallow draft '

' The real and perceived downsides of lift keel and shallow draft boats are well known, and buyers seem to avoid them '

So thousands of owners of Anderson 22 & 26, Seal 22, 26 & 28, E-Boats, Parkers, Southerlys and Ovni's, Centaurs etc are just as perverted in their taste as you and I then ! :)
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There may well be "thousands" of them, although that is extreme exaggeration - as many of those boats you cite were built in relatively small numbers and NONE (or almost none) are in the 30-35' range. The total production of Southerlies of all sizes over the 30 odd years is less than 1000 for example, and there are less than 30 in the target size range currently listed on Yachtworld for sale, over half of which are old boats that would not meet the OPs criteria (even if he liked Southerlies!).

There is a place for small shallow draft boats living on drying moorings, and I fully understand the attraction, but not any measurable demand for lift keel boats over 30', at least not modern designs. Whether others think that there should be demand does not matter - the only thing that matters for builders is what people want to buy, and few choose lift keelers when they have the choice.
 
Malo37 said:
I am considering moving back to the South of England after many years based in Scotland.
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If I moved back to the South of England I'd seriously consider just selling the boat and chartering. There's lots of choice. You could pick the horse for the course depending upon what your plans are for any weekend.
 
Tranona said:
There is a place for small shallow draft boats living on drying moorings, and I fully understand the attraction, but not any measurable demand for lift keel boats over 30', at least not modern designs. Whether others think that there should be demand does not matter - the only thing that matters for builders is what people want to buy, and few choose lift keelers when they have the choice.
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As Southerly found out to its cost. Or rather, the cost of its workers and suppliers.

The appeal of a lift keeler in a larger size is there, but once the extra costs in construction and subsequent maintenance are looked at closely, it becomes clear to most that the saving on mooring fees does not offset the purchase price premium combined with ongoing maintenance. I suspect that only those who really do have to keep in a boat in shallow waters or who relish getting up skinny creeks for the night are prepared to shell out the extra for a mid (or larger) sized lift keel.

Incidentally, there have been several references here to US boats - I believe they should more accurately be described as centreboarders rather than lift keel. For most the ballast is in the bilge, while the board is unballasted.
 
Tranona said:
...but not any measurable demand for lift keel boats over 30', at least not modern designs.
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Not a huge volume builder, but Structures can't make enough of their 30ft and up swing keel range of Pogos to satisfy demand. The wait for a Pogo 30 is currently over 18 months. The swing keels are used to allow very deep draught when sailing, and in the case of the 30 draught is only reduced to 1m when the keel is up. Good for getting in and out of shallow harbours but not really for drying out regularly. The keel design is pretty simple and is raised and lowered hydraulically.
 
Malo37 said:
I think there may be some interesting Dutch lifting keel boats.
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There certainly are, but I think you will find that they are built in small numbers, by niche yards. Many of them will be aluminium hulls and be the sort of sturdy, go-anywhere boats. Have a look at Dick Koopmans designs. Atlantic Yachts in Harlingen build aluminium lifting keel boats
 
mrming said:
Not a huge volume builder, but Structures can't make enough of their 30ft and up swing keel range of Pogos to satisfy demand. The wait for a Pogo 30 is currently over 18 months. The swing keels are used to allow very deep draught when sailing, and in the case of the 30 draught is only reduced to 1m when the keel is up. Good for getting in and out of shallow harbours but not really for drying out regularly. The keel design is pretty simple and is raised and lowered hydraulically.
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But you are still only talking penny numbers and doubt that many will make their way to the UK. Niche market boats like this tend to have short life cycles as the small demand is soon filled, although some niche concepts do become mainstream. Not surer the Pogo concept is in that category.
 
It's news to me that alloy has a finite life (post 21) - well of course everything has a finite life but in the context of the post is alloy really not capable of lasting 50 or 60 years if maintained correctly?
 
Seajet said:
The very last thing I'd consider would be a shallow wing keel, people who reckon they stay upright on that at low water seem to think we dry out on billiard tables and clearly haven't walked on the mud around moorings...
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I've got a shallow wing, for the very particular reason that at 30 ft the boat goes far better into the winds, waves and 6kn tides of the Bristol Channel than will any comparable twin keeler (of sensible price- I am not drawing comparisons with things like RMs) yet her draft is shallow enough to make her home port of Cardiff an all-tide entry, which is important here where the weather can so easily outrun the forecast. All keel configurations have different advantages and suit different, sometimes very specific, needs.

As for drying out wing keelers, this is a half myth. Ours is lead and the boat will not take the ground without legs- which we do not have and I have never considered this an appealing idea. Anybody wanting to keep a wing keeler on a drying mooring wants to be very sure of what they are doing because most of them are not really designed or suitable for that.

Cheers
 
Tranona said:
But you are still only talking penny numbers and doubt that many will make their way to the UK. Niche market boats like this tend to have short life cycles as the small demand is soon filled, although some niche concepts do become mainstream. Not surer the Pogo concept is in that category.
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Probably not, but we have got a 30 near us now - compared to the surrounding boats it looks like it's just landed from another planet. :)
 
Seajet said:
Long story, I tried a fin keeler in marinas and on various deep water moorings for a few years, a useful experience but I realised it was a mug's game and bought my original lift keeler back.
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Why is having a berth in a marina a "mug's game"

You can get off & on it easily , it is fairly safe & there is a certain amount of social interaction in a marina that one does not get when moored 50yds from the next boat. it is good to be able to stroll to the loos & showers or to the bar or just load ones supplies aboard without having to row a damned dinghy everywhere first. One does not get bounced about in a marina & it is great just to go to the boat, sit & watch the world go by with a cup of coffee in ones hand or a book
No way would I go back to moorings for my cruiser & i have a free mooring always available
 
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