Reliance again!

john john said:
Correct. Nick Irving was taken to the Royal Admiralty Courts last year and over a 2 day trial his company Reliance Yacht Deliveries was found negligent and liable. The bereaved family sat through it all. However, no surprise that when they tried to apply the judgement to recoup costs and payment, Reliance Yacht Deliveries Ltd. had 'ceased trading', and another Reliance company had popped up to continue trading. So the family didn't just lose a brother / son, but a whole bunch of money too.

The MCA had said that nothing could be done because deaths were on US registered vessels. However, one was not .... Irving just said that it was. The vessel was actually registered on the SSR under his name! The only problem is that the registration was cancelled just days before the boat went down killing the skipper. It's unclear at present whether manslaughter charges can be brought in the UK in respect of this. If he manages to slip out of this one too, then I may just go around with a sledge hammer!
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Don't blame you mate,for feeling like that,you aren't the only one,but *heads up* beware the forum might be the lair of fingerwagging snitches and grasses,take care all the best Jerry
 
Uricanejack said:
The French have authority over Djibouti as a French Territory.
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No - Djibouti is an independant country, although there is a heavy French military presence there (major Legion base for example).

I suspect that the cat encountered a French naval vessel in or near Djibouti who 'advised' them in no uncertain terms that they were being a bit stupid if they were to sail any further south. At which point the crew finaly undestood the danger they were sailing into and returned to port.
 
john john said:
Correct. Nick Irving was taken to the Royal Admiralty Courts last year and over a 2 day trial his company Reliance Yacht Deliveries was found negligent and liable. The bereaved family sat through it all. However, no surprise that when they tried to apply the judgement to recoup costs and payment, Reliance Yacht Deliveries Ltd. had 'ceased trading', and another Reliance company had popped up to continue trading. So the family didn't just lose a brother / son, but a whole bunch of money too.
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This isn't the first time that it has been stated in this forum that a "Reliance" company has been shut down to avoid a financial obligation and restarted. Whilst I am always hesitant to take at face value anything the Internet tells me, a look at company checking websites suggests that the director of the current "Reliance" is or has been director of 6 other companies with rather similar names. The same Internet domain seems to keep being re-used. I signed up to the mailing list of a Reliance company in 2008 and am still getting emails. If this is an entirely different company then I never signed up to their list and they are in breech of the European Directive on Privacy and Electronic Communications.

They got Al Capone for tax evasion. The ICO doesn't have big teeth but it might if it had an MP's support behind it.
 
john john said:
I think the French are perhaps a little more serious about this kind of thing. The arrival of a French crew in Djibouti brought this boat to their attention. I assume it was French flagged too. I know that the MCA boarded and returned a Reliance delivery in the Solent a year or so ago because the crew were unqualified and ill-equipped.

There is a group of people in the UK, including bereaved relatives, lawyers and even an MP who are hot on the heels of Reliance Yacht Management. Also the MCA and Hampshire Police Maritime Unit. But the question remains: What can be done?

Quite how this guy Nick Irving sleeps at night is beyond me.
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Explain pls, what all these people are after them for.
Who is the MP ?
 
laika said:
The same Internet domain seems to keep being re-used. I signed up to the mailing list of a Reliance company in 2008 and am still getting emails. If this is an entirely different company then I never signed up to their list and they are in breech of the European Directive on Privacy and Electronic Communications.
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You seem to have a reasonable point but you getting emails you dont want is not going to be very high on Irving's list of worries. He doesn't give a toss about other issues of greater significance, or anything at all come to that!
 
Yacht delivery has allway's been a bit dodgy.
Ive googled reliance and they apear to be rather dodgier than a bit dodgy.
I certainly would not hire them to deliver my boat at least not if I wanted it to get here. Maybee if I was a bit short of cash and an insurance payout would be helpfull.
Its a pity about the law and espesialy once its off shore not likly to be much help. This chap obviously doesn't care.
Does the op have a conection to someone who has been lost or hurt in the service of this coumpany.
Reality check. The Skipper was in charge of the boat. He used his judgement preasured or not and got it wrong. He paid the price no point in blaming him now.
Why a reputable company would put thier boat in harms way of Somalia is beyond comprehension. A disreuputable company would not care as long as it was insured for the voyage and cheeper than puting on a ship and shipping past the area. Win Win if it gets there you save monney. if not you claim insurance.
As for the chap in Farnbourgh. Using a hammer may feel good and have short term effect but will hurt the hammer weilder much more in the long run.
Post reputation under every buisness name he comes up with and hurt his pocket. its only liable if its not true
 
moodyNick said:
You seem to have a reasonable point but you getting emails you dont want is not going to be very high on Irving's list of worries. He doesn't give a toss about other issues of greater significance, or anything at all come to that!
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True. However not only does using information assets from a previous company make a mockery of any claim that this is a new and separate venture but it is also something the current company can be prosecuted for. In the cold light of day however I do appreciate the moral turpitude of suggesting a politician use influence to have a disproportionate punishment applied for one transgression to make up for those involved having escaped punishment for an entirely different offence.

Normally I don't like to comment on contentious issues in public forums, especially if I only have other forum posts, news articles and a bit of company checking to base my assumptions on (you can't believe the Internet!). My personal experience from a few years back of Reliance the esteem in which Mr. Irving holds his unpaid delivery crew has made me a little biased. I'll crawl back to the PBO forum now...
 
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But responding to the debate, Shipping Minister Mike Penning said he had "not one, but both hands tied behind my back". In the circumstances he said: "We have no powers in this regard."

But he pledged to work with Mr Cox and the bereaved families to see if a prosecution would be possible.
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It would be interesting to know if Messrs Penning and Cox actually did anything about it and with what result. (EDIT) I thought I would start with Hansardbut there is no mention of Mr Cox raising the matter. So now I have ended up writing to the House of Commons to find out why it is not recorded.

I wish I hadnt got started on this !
 
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moodyNick said:
It would be interesting to know if Messrs Penning and Cox actually did anything about it and with what result. (EDIT) I thought I would start with Hansardbut there is no mention of Mr Cox raising the matter. So now I have ended up writing to the House of Commons to find out why it is not recorded.

I wish I hadnt got started on this !
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Could you pls advise what this is about.
 
john john said:
Hadn't seen the Commons report before. Interesting ... and damming of course, but again nothing done.
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Not entirely sure what you hope to achieve by raising the issue here. The basic problem is that the "law" has holes in it because the sort of crimes committed here are almost impossible to control within one jurisdiction. What is disappointing is the miserable penalty from the successful civil action and the difficulty of enforcing the penalty. Difficult to know what else to do when most public means of exposing the wrongdoer - including a feature programme on TV have been unsuccessful.

To my mind, the onus is now on the clients to refuse to engage Reliance. Lack of work will soon see him gone, but he must have some kind of hold over them, or they are ignorant of the facts.
 
Tranona said:
Not entirely sure what you hope to achieve by raising the issue here. The basic problem is that the "law" has holes in it because the sort of crimes committed here are almost impossible to control within one jurisdiction. What is disappointing is the miserable penalty from the successful civil action and the difficulty of enforcing the penalty. Difficult to know what else to do when most public means of exposing the wrongdoer - including a feature programme on TV have been unsuccessful.

To my mind, the onus is now on the clients to refuse to engage Reliance. Lack of work will soon see him gone, but he must have some kind of hold over them, or they are ignorant of the facts.
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I would have thought that there is some kind of fraud involved, for which the directory of a company can be held personally responsible for, if he winds up his company purely to avoid a payout to a customer, or to avoid paying a supplier, such as a skipper for goods/services provided. Particularly if he recreates almost the exact same company.

May this can be proven by the fact that a new company is created to do exactly the same thing with the same resources (such as the same website domain name etc), same directors, same owners etc as the old one.

Of course if the company really was broke, then it is going to be very hard to prove the director is guilty of fraud - winding up a company because it can no longer pay its bills is valid.

One thing may be worth checking is whether VAT was all up to date before each company was wound up. If the interest of HMRC can be woken up to the fact that repeatedly VAT has gone missing when the company has been wound up (no idea if that is the case) for a new one to be created with the exact same credentials, then they might be a powerful ally to have.
 
I feel obliged to keep this subject aired because yet more lives are being put at risk. There are inherent risks in offshore sailing, but they can be minimised. All of those deaths on Reliance deliveries were preventable. It is a lack of consideration, professionalism and care, mixed with some greed and incompetence, that is to blame.

Reliance are certainly 'on the ropes', but like a cornered rat, they come out fighting ... quoting lower and lower in order to entice clients back. Sad to say, but the Catamaran Company in Florida have just fallen for this ... using their services again after the death of Steve Hobley on one of their boats a few years ago.

Memories are short in business
 
Tranona said:
To my mind, the onus is now on the clients to refuse to engage Reliance. Lack of work will soon see him gone, but he must have some kind of hold over them, or they are ignorant of the facts.
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As i pointed out previously, most of their work appears to be deliveries away from the UK, probably because the clients know nothing about what has been going on in the UK.
 
john john said:
Hadn't seen the Commons report before. Interesting ... and damming of course, but again nothing done.
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As I have the bit between my teeth on this, I have just written to Messrs Cox and Penning to ask for an update on their progress, regarding Mr Penning's closing comment:

I will work with my hon. and learned Friend and the families, and with anyone else who wants to work with us, so that we do everything we can to see whether this prosecution is possible and, if it is not, to make sure that we protect other families’ loved ones when they put to sea on the high seas.
 
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